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All Hands, The Same Way[ return to main articles page ]

By: Paul Herzog    [See all articles by Paul Herzog]
Published on Mar 14th, 2011
In a recent thread in the Hand Advice forum, we had the following hand from the Daily Ninety Grand, $50+5 buy-in, on PokerStars:

Our hero has 34k chips, with the blinds at 600/1200/150. He raises pre-flop to 3000 with pocket tens, and gets two callers, including one very short-stacked. The flop is 10-3-2. The Hero continuation bets with top set, and both players (even the one with 4 BB left) fold.

His question: Do we always have to check to try and trap in order to get value out of this hand?

Our natural instinct with a monster hand on a dry board is to try and trap. That’s what we’re told to do from the first day we learn poker, no matter what form of the game. That’s what we see television announcers celebrate. That’s what Mike McDermott did to Teddy KGB.

My response, however, is that we first and foremost have to maintain consistency in how we play our hands, regardless of their strength. If we would check J-J, we should check our top set. If we would check A-A, we should check our top set. If we would check A-K, we should check our top set.

The opposite, of course, is also true. If we’re betting A-K as a continuation-bet bluff, we should bet top set. If we’d bet an overpair to get value, we should try to get equal value from top set.

If we play our made hands differently than the flops we miss, eventually good opponents will pick up on this, and we’ll stop being able to get any value at all. Let’s say one of the Villains in this hand has 8-8. Villain’s read on the Hero is that he’ll play made hands passively, in an attempt to trap. Hero checks the flop, and Villain checks behind.

The turn is another 3. The Hero checks again. The Villain may take a stab at the pot, but regardless of whether the Hero just calls or check-raises, he’s not getting any more value from the hand. It’s done.

Let’s compare this to what happens if we bet top set against the same 8-8. The Villain is much more likely to include hands getting beat by his pair in your betting range…because you haven’t done anything to define that range. He doesn’t have a read on you, so he has to rely on his other experience. In online play, that experience will include thousands of players who think A-K and A-Q are the stone nuts.

So, you bet…his first thought will very likely be, “Standard c-bet from a donkey with A-K.” Therefore, he’ll call the flop. He may even raise, but that’s such a happy thought it’s not worth analyzing (just sit back and enjoy).

The turn is a 3, giving you a full house. At this point, you can bet again, and your opponent may think, “Standard 2-barrel from a donkey with A-K.” Or, you can really represent A-K, act like your c-bet failed, and induce what your opponent thinks is a value bet. Either way, you have several options to get value out of your made hand, all coming from doing everything the same way.

Yes, you are losing out on some spots where your opponent catches halfway up on the turn or river. In our hand, the guy with K-Q is going to bet a King or Queen on the turn. But if his read is that you’re checking the flop to trap with big hands, he may still be suspicious. Compare that possibility to him thinking you have A-K. You bet the flop, and yes, he’ll fold much of the time…but he’ll also bluff-raise the flop quite a bit if he thinks you’ll fold A-K. Those are extra chips that won’t end up in the middle if you’re trapping, waiting for him to catch a helping card.

Please understand…I’m not saying that you should take the same action every time. When you flop top set, you are not always betting, and not always trapping. You are betting some times, and checking others. But whatever bet-to-check ratio you choose, you are keeping it constant regardless of what hand you have.

This advice applies equally to deep-stack spots as it does to late in tournaments. The only thing that changes is your bet-to-check ratio. When you’ve got under 20 BB late in a tournament, the right play to make is often mathematically defined. It’s OK for your ratio to be “100% bet”…just make sure you do it with your entire range.

In No Limit Hold’em, the majority of hands complete without anyone revealing their cards at showdown. It’s not the strength of your hand that decides the winner; it’s the consistency and strength of the story being told by the betting action. If your actions hide what cards you have better than your opponent’s action, you’re more likely to end up the victor.

-grapsfan

Comments

  1. soi this
     1
  2. I think checking to induce is the most profitable play here, but we should also check with our unmade hands if the flop is coordinated and we dont have position. To be honest I will check here with a set and cbet with overpairs (not always tho, vs some opponents who will always bet this flop in position with air I sometimes slso either c/r or c/c all the way to get the most value) to protect it from a set or 2pair that could show up on the turn, cbet my AK about half of the time and c/f if the stack sizes are not good for a cbet. I also would cbet my set on a coordinated board. So IMO it is a mistake to cbet this flop, since there are a lot of flops where a cbet with top set is appropriate. I think making decisions depending on the flop texture and the own hand is enough mixture to be hard to read. And in a bigger tourney like the dng u dont need to worry much about high class reads from your opponents. I could see myself making this play against high stakes regs in the $109 (I actually think I will cbet every time here in such a tourney) who will use the uncoordinated board to raise my cbet, or even call me all the way down with a pair cause they put me on AK (I like to induce there, like cbet flop and turn and check river - looks weak often), but no way I could do this in the dng, sunday mil, or any other tourney where there are a lot of fish who won't fold top pair if they hit.
  3. agree
  4.  
    Originally Posted by RedIceRap View Post

    I think checking to induce is the most profitable play here, but we should also check with our unmade hands if the flop is coordinated and we dont have position. To be honest I will check here with a set and cbet with overpairs (not always tho, vs some opponents who will always bet this flop in position with air I sometimes slso either c/r or c/c all the way to get the most value) to protect it from a set or 2pair that could show up on the turn, cbet my AK about half of the time and c/f if the stack sizes are not good for a cbet. I also would cbet my set on a coordinated board. So IMO it is a mistake to cbet this flop, since there are a lot of flops where a cbet with top set is appropriate. I think making decisions depending on the flop texture and the own hand is enough mixture to be hard to read. And in a bigger tourney like the dng u dont need to worry much about high class reads from your opponents. I could see myself making this play against high stakes regs in the $109 (I actually think I will cbet every time here in such a tourney) who will use the uncoordinated board to raise my cbet, or even call me all the way down with a pair cause they put me on AK (I like to induce there, like cbet flop and turn and check river - looks weak often), but no way I could do this in the dng, sunday mil, or any other tourney where there are a lot of fish who won't fold top pair if they hit.


    I have to agree more with Red here as his view is graps' explanation combined with a situational application. Like Red explained he would cbet most of his range here vs regs, but in a soft field you have to sometimes change your strategy to trap unexperienced players. Like the short stack in this example calls a raise leaving himself with 4bb and still folds is ridiculous. So why not check here to perhaps induce a bluffshove from shorty and perhaps the other player will call as well to see a turn or maybe he'll even bluffraise/shove to isolate the shortstack.
  5. perhaps the most useless advice ive seen on this forum in article form
     
  6.  
    Originally Posted by funnygut View Post

    perhaps the most useless advice ive seen on this forum in article form

    If you took the time to be this negative...maybe you could take the time to contribute? Share some knowledge with players who aren't as good as you are (myself included)?
    Thread Starter
  7. the idea of playing all your hands the same way in order to make sure good opponents don't pick up on your style is a bit misleading. if i noticed that someone is always c betting or always checking flops i am going to exploit that to some degree over time. a player's general playing style, betting patterns, and table image should be forever-evolving and forever-changing in order to stay ahead of others that you play with often. there really should be no static answer when playing an in depth hand vs a player u have 100s or even 1000s of hands vs bc there are so many factors that are going to be playing a part of the hand and future hands. in this example and most hh's you should always take stack sizes into great consideration. you have a guy that flatted with 4 bbs behind. from this we can assume he either has aa and is semi-competent and is trying to get max value out of his hand vs 2 opponents or he is a complete moron. im going to go with moron on most occasions as a general rule and make sure that i give him a chance to put the rest of his chips in and hopefully get a call from the other player as well as it is only 4 bbs and he is flatting pretty wide vs a shove that size on the turn or flop (im not sure of the positions of the players as i have not read the strat thread). in summation, it is hard to give a standard answer in complex spots vs ppl you play with often as there are undisclosed factors between the two that may or may not be known by both parties, but when dealing with 2 randoms, any sort of consistency should be disregarded and max value and induction should be the most important factors when playing ur hand.
    Edited By: sirswish6 Mar 15th, 2011 at 10:43 AM
  8. lol @ swish posting something realfor the hand, what swish saidfor the article, its very existence befuddles me. was this spot keeping you up at night? had to make sure everyone knew they should cbet that top set, otherwise theyll never get any respect for those other cbets, even tho villains are complete randoms and the spot is a rather unusual one in the first place?...the whole article is littered with overstated, inadequately-unpacked, or just downright meaningless phrases:we first and foremost have to maintain consistency in how we play our hands, regardless of their strength.If we’re betting A-K as a continuation-bet bluff, we should bet top set.I’m not saying that you should take the same action every time.But whatever bet-to-check ratio you choose, you are keeping it constant regardless of what hand you have.deception is an important part of poker, but this is such a poor explanation of it, and a terrible example to use. the value of being consistent in betting patterns occurs on a sliding scale (you yourself mentioned how, when we get shorter stacked, we have fewer options), and this hand is one in which there is almost 0 reason i can see to have a lot of balance in our cbet range. we crushed an extremely dry flop in a very shallow-stacked pot against two randoms, one very short....seems like anything but a check is real dum. basically, i just don't know why you wrote this. there has been discussion on pd for years about having a high stakes forum, since so many threads get cluttered with meaningless advice from inexperienced players. perhaps p5s chose to lessen the clutter by allowing some of them to pen articles instead.
     
  9. bet flop check turn to induce against an opponent whos looking to exploit a cbet...
     
 
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