I started backing Jordan (Jymaster11) in September 2010 on a deal with makeup combined for both live and online play with buyins of upto $10k (at no point did I say that he could play any 10k no questions asked (see later). Although I only backed him for just over 7 month we chatted on aim most days when we were grinding sessions/spewing stacks and met and hung out at the PCA. I think we would both agree that we were friends rather than just a backer and a horse. the relationship recently turned very sour though as after moving out of the country to Canada to play online poker again Jordan is currently refusing to carry on playing for me. Jordan's makeup is currently around 80k and I am obviously looking to get that back, obviously he has phenomenal results online and will almost certainly get out of makeup at some point if he were to continue on the stake. His issue with why he won't continue on the stake is due to me not backing him at this years WSOP. Jordan has started playing on a new backing deal while discussions about our deal are still ongoing. The conversation below explains the situation in more detail and is the whole conversation between me Jordan and Jamie (Pokerjamers) on skype on Sunday night (warning very long)

[9/5/2011 9:16:35 AM] moorman1: yo
[9/5/2011 9:16:53 AM] Jordan Young: alright so whatever jamie decides is what goes?
[9/5/2011 9:17:25 AM] jamiearmstrong15: just type it all out and i'll read
[9/5/2011 9:17:39 AM] moorman1: yeah how do u wanna do it
[9/5/2011 9:19:35 AM] moorman1: shall i start with the email i sent out to every1 on 19th april
[9/5/2011 9:19:42 AM] Jordan Young: The events of friday have obviously hit all of us extremely hard, I can't imagine not being able to logon to ftp and stars and just being able to grind some poker, it must be terrible, also I'd go bust pretty quickly grinding live poker! Unfortunately it has also hit me extremely hard, with 16 of my 24 horses being American, and $ stuck in most of your accounts, plus makeups obviously. Makeups that I was confident the vast majority would grind out of over ftops and scoop, producing a nice upswing before the wsop. Unfortunately with a huge amount of my assets now locked up and you guys being able to play online this is no longer possible . Right now it just doesn't look like I'm able to provide wsop backing, I'm letting you know asap so that you can hopefully find other arrangements for the summer, I know this isn't ideal but I have no other choice and this is a situation that none of us saw coming. I hope the situation gets resolved asap in the U.S and you can get back to grinding online in the near future. When that does happen I will try and restructure makeup a bit so that you can get paid as you work some of it off as I know people will be short on cash. Hopefully you have success grinding live cash/tourneys until then or whatever you decide to do. Can you all get back to me individually on aim, and we'll discuss things further. Also I would be very grateful if you could all update donkbluff so I know exactly where I am right now.

[9/5/2011 9:19:55 AM] moorman1: yeh thats it
[9/5/2011 9:21:36 AM] Jordan Young: I interpretted that as him dropping me
[9/5/2011 9:22:00 AM] Jordan Young: considering our agreement stated he would put me in all wsop events
[9/5/2011 9:22:02 AM] Jordan Young: and now wasnt
[9/5/2011 9:25:42 AM] moorman1: i saw it as frozen makeup that would be resumed after the wsop when players moved abroad and could play online again, i felt like i should tell the horses they could sell their action for wsop because i couldnt guarantee they would be able to play in the summer and i didnt want them to miss out, i felt due to the nature of black friday being totally different to anything b4 it's not like where the backer goes bust and the horse is free and that horses and backers should compromise with each other, thats why i stated i was willing to help the horses out with life funds and a $ of profits once they got back as i knew a lot wouldnt be in a good situation, ive had 3 horses (imalucsac, cronic and mohsin) all comeback with no problems from the exact same email
[9/5/2011 9:26:19 AM] moorman1: *% of profits
[9/5/2011 9:29:55 AM] Jordan Young: Yea but you sent that email assuming your horses would agree to that, that's not something I would ever agree to if I had interpreted the way you had intended it to be interpreted....and I know the universal rule in backing has always been if your backer cant put you in the right games then you're free from the deal so I have no idea how I'm supposed to interpret that email or any other part of our deal differently than the way I did....chris couldn't put me in the games he said he would and I don't think I should have to suffer because of it
[9/5/2011 9:31:52 AM] Jordan Young: i mean that's my whole case, there isnt much more to it....I agreed to a deal as did Chris and when he broke his end of the arrangement I considered it over
[9/5/2011 9:32:10 AM] Jordan Young: I know there were unexpected circumstances but that's not my fault
[9/5/2011 9:33:19 AM] jamiearmstrong15: ok sorry was making some eggs
[9/5/2011 9:33:21 AM] jamiearmstrong15: ill read it all now
[9/5/2011 9:35:58 AM] moorman1: i feel that u should of been clearer with how u felt about the situation because i had no idea until recently, obv i wrongly assumed that it was all cool but at the end of the day out of 3 other ppl so far who have comeback nd joined the stake they have all been happy with the situation and there was similar communication levels with everyone
[9/5/2011 9:38:08 AM] Jordan Young: I don't think I should be tied into how those other 3 people interpreted it because I don't know what type of deal they had with you and and I don't know if it was laid out as clear cut as ours was
[9/5/2011 9:38:14 AM] jamiearmstrong15: jordan what do you mean thats not something you would ever agree to?
[9/5/2011 9:39:24 AM] jamiearmstrong15: did you respond to that email jordan?
[9/5/2011 9:39:58 AM] Jordan Young: Because then he's getting to pick and choose what he backs me for....he doesnt want to back me for WSOP but wants me to play online for him and offers to pay a small percentage of $$ while I work off make up
[9/5/2011 9:40:19 AM] Jordan Young: AIM IM with Poolmasterxxxxx 5/6/11 2:32 AM
Jordan Young
you there?
2:41 AM
Jordan Young
alright well I was gonna write you an e-mail but i guess I lost your email address....it's about WSOP, basically like everyone i wasnt prepared for the blackout to happen and I wasnt very cautious with the money I made, I basically was just doing whatever i felt like, traveling, partying buying shit without thinking etc because i always thought i could just make it back online (lost a decent % of it backing as well)....my main reason for writing you this is that i cant afford to put up money for myself to play the series this year by selling pieces of myself because i want to have atleast a decent % of myself, I mean i could physically put up the 30k or w/e to have 50% of myself but im just not comfortable doing it, my other option is selling 100% of myself at 1.2 but then i would only have 20% of myself, something i dont wanna do
Jordan Young
so i basically need to find a fulltime backer to put me in everything, which would kinda hinder our deal
Jordan Young
just not sure what to do or what you want me to do....get back to me with thoughts whenever you read this
[9/5/2011 9:40:22 AM] Jordan Young: no response
[9/5/2011 9:41:22 AM] moorman1: u can ask a few ppl who will back this up but i wasnt getting my aim messages for over a month, was really fucke dup
[9/5/2011 9:41:41 AM] moorman1: i had ppl thinking i didnt even want to ever talk to them again
[9/5/2011 9:42:17 AM] Jordan Young: well when I didnt get a response to that I considered us 100% done
[9/5/2011 9:42:46 AM] Jordan Young: but I thought I was free before that as well because I was looking for backers
[9/5/2011 9:42:49 AM] jamiearmstrong15: well then he could say the same
[9/5/2011 9:43:01 AM] jamiearmstrong15: that you not responding to his email he expected you to agree with it
[9/5/2011 9:44:16 AM] jamiearmstrong15: why wouldn't he get to pick and choose what to back you for ?
[9/5/2011 9:44:28 AM] Jordan Young: Because that's not what we agreed on
[9/5/2011 9:44:39 AM] jamiearmstrong15: what was the exact agreement
[9/5/2011 9:44:40 AM] Jordan Young: agreement was I got to play any 10k online or live
[9/5/2011 9:44:47 AM] Jordan Young: that i wanted to play
[9/5/2011 9:44:52 AM] jamiearmstrong15: and that he could at no point ever change his mind?
[9/5/2011 9:45:24 AM] jamiearmstrong15: even if the agreement was you get to play any 10k, he can still change what you can play
[9/5/2011 9:45:47 AM] Jordan Young: Never discussed him changing his mind....I stated almost exactly "I want to be able to play any 10k online or live that I want no questions asked"
[9/5/2011 9:45:58 AM] Jordan Young: that makes no sense
[9/5/2011 9:46:04 AM] Jordan Young: that he can change his mind
[9/5/2011 9:46:13 AM] jamiearmstrong15: but you are both being extremely ambitious with what you guys expected after BF and going into wsop
[9/5/2011 9:46:13 AM] Jordan Young: you cant just re-write a contract unilaterallly
[9/5/2011 9:46:26 AM] jamiearmstrong15: did you have a contract?
[9/5/2011 9:46:38 AM] Jordan Young: it was an analogy but ok
[9/5/2011 9:46:39 AM] Jordan Young: no
[9/5/2011 9:46:48 AM] Jordan Young: makes it even easier for me to bounce if i wanted tho
[9/5/2011 9:46:57 AM] jamiearmstrong15: where is the original transcript of your backing arrangement

[9/5/2011 10:25:06 AM] Jordan Young: So if I could grind it back online before BF, I could do it after too
[9/5/2011 10:33:25 AM] Jordan Young: ?
[9/5/2011 10:33:32 AM] jamiearmstrong15: ?
[9/5/2011 10:33:48 AM] Jordan Young: well, now what
[9/5/2011 10:35:27 AM] moorman1: i guess we let jamie see what he thinks, unless u have anything else u'd like to add
[9/5/2011 10:36:08 AM] jamiearmstrong15: well honestly there isn't much for me to decide since you guys havne't give much info
[9/5/2011 10:36:31 AM] jamiearmstrong15: but i guess technically speaking, its extremely unfortunate situation as a backer
[9/5/2011 10:36:47 AM] moorman1: what other info do u want?
[9/5/2011 10:37:03 AM] jamiearmstrong15: and you never clarified with each otehr pre wsop
[9/5/2011 10:37:06 AM] jamiearmstrong15: which is a joke
[9/5/2011 10:37:30 AM] jamiearmstrong15: but his mu looks like it would be 0
[9/5/2011 10:38:02 AM] jamiearmstrong15: thats assuming he doesn't want to give u the benefit of the doubt on the situation at all
[9/5/2011 10:38:24 AM] jamiearmstrong15: as a backing/friendship relationship
[9/5/2011 10:38:56 AM] Jordan Young: tough to give compensation when I'm flat broke
[9/5/2011 10:38:57 AM] jamiearmstrong15: and i guess since he lost his own money that he didnt want to lose of course but couldnt afford to lose
[9/5/2011 10:39:12 AM] jamiearmstrong15: he doesn't have too much sympathy
[9/5/2011 10:40:45 AM] Jordan Young: not like i enjoy seeing chris get ****ed but I have to look out for my best interest first and foremost
[9/5/2011 10:41:56 AM] jamiearmstrong15: but what do you both want out of this
[9/5/2011 10:42:12 AM] jamiearmstrong15: jordan you want to be backed online by him dont you?
[9/5/2011 10:43:01 AM] jamiearmstrong15: i assume chris wont back you starting from 0 makeup though
[9/5/2011 10:43:07 AM] jamiearmstrong15: maybe you guys can come to some sort of compromise
[9/5/2011 10:43:21 AM] Jordan Young: that's what we've been trying to do for 2 weeks
[9/5/2011 10:43:25 AM] Jordan Young: whcih is why we're here
[9/5/2011 10:44:09 AM] jamiearmstrong15: whats the makeup exactly
[9/5/2011 10:45:00 AM] Jordan Young: but I don't see how I can just give more money away when I have none to give, so the answer would be no I dont wanna be backed by chris if my MU isn't starting over and he prob doesnt wanna do that
[9/5/2011 10:45:04 AM] Jordan Young: like 80k
[9/5/2011 10:45:09 AM] Jordan Young: almost exactly
[9/5/2011 10:46:40 AM] jamiearmstrong15: you're playing the victim card pretty hard here
[9/5/2011 10:47:11 AM] jamiearmstrong15: i dont see what the discussion is about then
[9/5/2011 10:47:14 AM] jamiearmstrong15: you won't make any compromise
[9/5/2011 10:47:18 AM] Jordan Young: Because I don't want to give away free money?
[9/5/2011 10:47:23 AM] Jordan Young: ur right, i dont
[9/5/2011 10:47:51 AM] jamiearmstrong15: what does that evne mean
[9/5/2011 10:47:55 AM] jamiearmstrong15: you dont want to give away free money
[9/5/2011 10:47:58 AM] jamiearmstrong15: you're giving away no money
[9/5/2011 10:48:06 AM] Jordan Young: equity
[9/5/2011 10:48:09 AM] jamiearmstrong15: you never have your money involved in the situation at all
[9/5/2011 10:48:09 AM] Jordan Young: then
[9/5/2011 10:48:25 AM] Jordan Young: my potential future earnings
[9/5/2011 10:48:25 AM] jamiearmstrong15: why is it free equity
[9/5/2011 10:48:41 AM] jamiearmstrong15: you were given? equity for free
[9/5/2011 10:49:51 AM] Jordan Young: I know
[9/5/2011 10:50:16 AM] Jordan Young: In a deal we both thought was +EV....I don't think what you're proposing is +EV for me
[9/5/2011 10:51:01 AM] jamiearmstrong15: how is it not
[9/5/2011 10:51:24 AM] jamiearmstrong15: and i never even proposed a deal for you
[9/5/2011 10:51:28 AM] Jordan Young: well it depends on what you're suggesting
[9/5/2011 10:51:49 AM] jamiearmstrong15: i can't imagine any deal not being +ev though
[9/5/2011 10:51:55 AM] jamiearmstrong15: unless you're a losing player
[9/5/2011 10:52:41 AM] Jordan Young: having 0mu with a different person is my best option tho
[9/5/2011 10:54:45 AM] jamiearmstrong15: so it would just be a more +ev option
[9/5/2011 10:55:05 AM] jamiearmstrong15: would you feel bad at all leaving him?
[9/5/2011 10:56:04 AM] jamiearmstrong15: is chris even here?
[9/5/2011 10:56:47 AM] moorman1: yeh i am just reading
[9/5/2011 10:56:53 AM] Jordan Young: obviously don't feel great about it
[9/5/2011 10:58:14 AM] moorman1: i havent really got much else to add to this, feel like im gettign really screwed over here when my intentions were to help u guys out as much as i could, obv u were my horses and all and the main aim was to make money, but i felt like i was good friends with every1 and just feels sad to be getting screwed over thats all
[9/5/2011 10:58:50 AM] jamiearmstrong15: and i agree with you on that
[9/5/2011 10:59:09 AM] Jordan Young: I think I woulda said the exact same if it were reversed
[9/5/2011 10:59:36 AM] Jordan Young: someone was getting screwed
[9/5/2011 10:59:54 AM] jamiearmstrong15: i dont think you're getting screwed at alll either way jordan
[9/5/2011 11:00:41 AM] Jordan Young: alright
[9/5/2011 11:00:48 AM] jamiearmstrong15: how are you getting screwed?
[9/5/2011 11:01:16 AM] Jordan Young: if I had to start with 80k MU when I thought I would be starting with 0mu for the past 4 months?
[9/5/2011 11:01:36 AM] jamiearmstrong15: how does that change anything
[9/5/2011 11:01:36 AM] Jordan Young: I think I woulda handled some financial decisions differently
[9/5/2011 11:01:50 AM] jamiearmstrong15: would you be playing differently if you thought you would be coming in with a different makeup
[9/5/2011 11:02:18 AM] Jordan Young: no i dont think i ever have played different according to MU
[9/5/2011 11:08:00 AM] Jordan Young: alright im going to bed i guess
[9/5/2011 11:08:49 AM] *** jamiearmstrong15 has left ***

Both opinions make sense here, yours and his....that makes it pretty tough for both parties....

the united states government is a fucked up entity that will eventually cause ww3 with it's retarded decision makers up top with nothing but selfish motives that do not have the peoples best interest at hand. Wonder just how many lives 4/15 has turned upside down.

hopefully A fair solution to this mess is reachable but I'm afraid it's a catch 22 situation. Having to risk 30 to 50 k in buyins of your own money after working hard on your game and landing a backing deal so you wouldnt is valid and so is having to eat 80 k in mu because outside of your control you couldn't back your horse in the most important series of the year do to the actions of the us gov.

How clear was the contract that online and live mu was combined? I'd say if you kept separate numbers for live and online then it's much easier decision but with combined it really makes this a very hard and close decision.

Gl Chris and Jordan hopefully your friendship doesn't get spoiled over whatever decision is ultimately made.

not sure how he thinks hes giving money away, what about the 80k he lost, was that just moorman giving money away... i understand that he was a lil confused about the email but he cant just assume the deal is over and start from scratch somewhere else. seems a bit scummy to me

who is unemployable and what gives him the right to comment? maybe you should just skip my post then. but here's my two cents.

i think jymaster is trying to deflect his black friday hit onto moorman yet not tarnish his image in the process. with only the details from this thread. jordan would be jumping to conclusions to take the initial email as him being dropped. moorman did well to inform his horses promtly that he wouldn't be able to stretch himself that thin for wsop backing. obv jordan and chris had a special agreement. i, however, believe that since chris seemingly had a profitable start to the wsop if jordan was in a big bind he would search him out for a least some backing in the main. jordan probably decided he was okay with whatever he went with but looking back has regrets.

fwiw i don't think jordan had any malice in his heart but more so that its a in hindsight kind of thing. stuff didn't work out this summer for jordan and at least from a public perspective chris did well. now that jordan is back in his comfort zone as far as being able to play online he doesn't want to eat all his losses money and equity wise from what was a tough summer for almost all poker players. sure jordan is a great online horse for anyone but don't do this to moorman. hug it out. come to some sort of agreement so jordan isn't broke while he grinds out of this makeup that is and should remain his. and jordan, while you could easily find another stable i don't think you can find a better stable than moormans. whatever hardships you had this summer or continue to have it was either black friday's fault or bad decision making on your part. learn from it. chris will look out for you while you rebuild as i'm sure he would have over the summer if you put in some effort to get in touch with him.

cliffs- don't see why chris should have to eat any money here.

Has anyone brought up a scenario where he is $50k to the good and a good chunk of the $ tied up online was his. Moorman's ability to back players in WSOP would likely be no different. Obv JY would 100% still expect his cut if he and Chris parted ways. Yes?

jesus if backing is this easy i'll be in like flynn, and just walk away when all it all turns sour, somebody as accomplished as Jy shouldn't see this as debt, but as a springboard to winning even more

and if he's broke and chris isn't backing him, how is he entering the wcoop high roller? new backer maybe?

I don't see how he can interpret that he would have $0 make-up, and in theory I feel it should be $80K, but also don't see why this wasn't talked about before the WSOP. Obviously I have never been involved with figures this high with backing deals, but would say that its not out of the question for you guys to compromise on an amount and move ahead. Or move the $80K make-up into a $40K loan which can only be repaid if there is $X of profits.

 

Originally Posted by wackyJaxon

I don't see how he can interpret that he would have $0 make-up, and in theory I feel it should be $80K, but also don't see why this wasn't talked about before the WSOP. Obviously I have never been involved with figures this high with backing deals, but would say that its not out of the question for you guys to compromise on an amount and move ahead. Or move the $80K make-up into a $40K loan which can only be repaid if there is $X of profits.

this... I didnt understand why you guys havent communicated more before the WSOP...

Agree with chris. You cant just assume someone drops you. It has to be a formal set in stone agreement. Id say jy owes 80k

How do people have such large sums of money and equity hanging out in the wind and cannot produce a copy of the 'contract'

can backer just freeze makeup as needed basically putting things on pause even if the backee is dependent on them?

really really surprised to see such big names putting this out publicly. This is all very depressing.

First, will Jy move to Canada to grind online ??

 

Originally Posted by JLizard

really really surprised to see such big names putting this out publicly. This is all very depressing.

This was what hit me when I opened and begun to red.

Chris you put a lot of trust in P5ers by posting this so I will cliff you my thoughts (feel free to ask for more) :

- If I have to cut I'll say that you are right cause MU is MU like a dept is a dept, Jy cannot without any firm confirmation cancel the MU and go to another backer.

- A better communication is required, even more with friends on business. This situation can be avoided and that is what everybody can learn in this case.

- BF was more than unforeseeable (I guess most backing contract didn't mention about a situation like this) and effect related to BF have to be shared. Sharing will evolved a lot of parameters that I certainly don't know about (life expenses ect..) but it is too easy to just go out and leave thinking "what is the best for me".
My guess is that if Jy is ready to grind and be backed by Chris, Jy's potential have to be taken in account either by lowering the MU or as said here over beginning with 0 and adding the MU along the grind or finding an arrangement cause Jy's gonna crush (nearly for sure) and backing him instead of another PPL makes more $, up to you guys how to factorized this..

Was my 2 cents, I deeply hope you will find an arrangement as you are great PPL that achieved AND WILL ACHIEVE so much !!!

 

Originally Posted by Gags30

as a result of black friday many people suggested you be more lenient with your backers since this is obviously a new situation and doens't fit under the general 'rules of thumb' of backing

Right gags, it have to be rediscussed and rethought with the new parameters !!!

Jy's whole line to me seems like from the start he was trying to find a way out of the 80k make up that was easy for him. And ddnt get in touch so he could play the card he is playing now as an excuse to be make up free.

But then seeing as Chris, for some reason i have no idea, did not pick up the phone or find another way to make things clear, they should come to a comprimise. Maybe keep the 80k make up, but subtract the 30k that Jy lost of his own money, and then help him out financially whilst he clears the remaining make up.

But for Jy to just clear 80k make up that he created for himself would be ludicrious imo

 

Originally Posted by EyeKnows;6489795[B

]haven't read the whole thing but the backer is the person in control of this relationship, they have the money. the backer in this case was unable to back his horses, this is not the fault of the horses. how long does a horse have to wait for a backer to be able to back them again? the biggest live tournaments were missed (WSOP, it appears that backer was going to put horse into WSOP heavily) because the horse had no backer, when does the horse have the right to leave?

not commenting on MU at all.

This would be correct if the person who is playing time had zero value however it does. Also if this were true that the backer has all the control then they should have all the risk as well a 'special circumstance' came up too bad you lose.