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Poker Tax Q&A updated: September '09
Poker Backing and U.S. Tax Law by CPAEvil --- July 18, 2010

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Can someone give me some details on backing. I just want to know how it works in some detail. Mostly for live tournament players.

I'm working on a school project involving a widescale backing operation and am looking for some insight into why players make the decision to be backed. Mostly interested in what contract requirements you would have in order to sign a backing deal. Backing deals would be for MTT's only. The question I'm trying to answer is: "What sort of contracts would we have to offer in order to convince winning players to accept backing deals?" If you would never in a mirrion years want to be backed, your answers are especially relevant FWIW.

These first two just give me an idea of who you are as player.

1. What MTT stakes do you currently play? How many a day? Total avg daily buyins?
2. What is your current lifetime ROI in MTT? Over how many games? (use OPR or thepokerDB if you aren't sure)

These next two give me an idea of what kind of contract you would be seeking.

3. What stakes would like to be backed for? (live and online)
4. What is the lowest profit split you would accept for a deal that includes make-up? (not what you would like idealy, but the lowest you would accept before the number became a deal breaker)

These last three are the most important, please provide as detailed of answers as possible.

5. What are the reasons you want to be backed? (no personal risk, playing higher stakes, cuz I'm obv broke) Please elaborate as much as possible.
6. What, if anything, are the reasons you would not want to be backed? (pressure to preform, splitting of profits, volume requirements) Again, please elaborate as much as possible.
7. What else do you think I need to know about your views on backing?

Thanks in advance to everyone who replys.

what if we are backed already:) obv brag

<span>I'm working on a school project involving a widescale backing operation and am looking for some insight into why players make the decision to be backed. Mostly interested in what contract requirements you would have in order to sign a backing deal. Backing deals would be for MTT's only. The question I'm trying to answer is: "What sort of contracts would we have to offer in order to convince winning players to accept backing deals?" If you would never in a mirrion years want to be backed, your answers are especially relevant FWIW.</span>
<span>
These first two just give me an idea of who you are as player.

1. What MTT stakes do you currently play? How many a day? Total avg daily buyins?</span><span>1-20$ currently but am moving up at the end of month
2. What is your current lifetime ROI in MTT? Over how many games? (use OPR or thepokerDB if you aren't sure)</span>
<span>172% roi on Stars - http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...35614.html?t=9</span>
<span>43% roi on FTP - http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...217BC.html?t=9

These next two give me an idea of what kind of contract you would be seeking.

3. What stakes would like to be backed for? (live and online)</span>
<span>30+
4. What is the lowest profit split you would accept for a deal that includes make-up? (not what you would like idealy, but the lowest you would accept before the number became a deal breaker) 45/55 in backers favour

These last three are the most important, please provide as detailed of answers as possible.

5. What are the reasons you want to be backed? (no personal risk, playing higher stakes, cuz I'm obv broke) Reduce variance and be able to move up stakes quicker. Also to get coaching (which is usually offered) and have other players to talk to about hands.
6. What, if anything, are the reasons you would not want to be backed? (pressure to preform, splitting of profits, volume requirements) Again, please elaborate as much as possible. </span>
<span>Volume is definetly something that could shape your decision in getting backed. Some backers want tons of volume and if you arent always available then it might not be right for you.
7. What else do you think I need to know about your views on backing?

Thanks in advance to everyone who replys.</span>

<span>I tried to answer as best as possible. I am new to the backing scene and still trying to get a hang of it.</span>

I am not backed and have never been backed so I really dont know much about it or finding it. I am looking for information on if there is ways to get backed for live mtts and just live mtts or if all deals require pieces of online play too? I would like to play the Venetian series which is 46 events ($340s and $550s, two $1ks, three $2ks, and a 5k main) and they total about $30k in total buyins and starts May 28th through July 15th. I will be in Vegas May 25th through July 25th as it stand right now and may stay longer depending. If the backer wanted me in certain WSOP events I guess we could talk about that (ie Main event) but for the most part I am looking to play the events outside of the WSOP this go around.

I havent played a ton live, but I have had some success when I have. I cashed in a 2.5k LAPT in Costa Rica my first ever live tournament, Ive got several FTs at Derby Lane (local casino) mtts in limited play, and I also FTed two Caesars Palace mtts last year (8th and 5th places) during the WSOP in about 10 mtts played total the two weeks I was out there.

Also, in the gboro podcast he mentioned that he went 0 for 17 in his live backing deal and bought himself out. Is this standard procedure because of makeup if the backee wants out during makeup or it ends up just a short term live deal?

Any other information that could be useful or your personal stories for this type of stuff I guess post in here.

ya i hear ya on the experience thing, the Caesars FTs were their version of the Venetian series that runs during the WSOP (one was a $330 day one and one was $160 nightly they ran). Caesars get much smaller fields and pay out less than the Venetian. Caesars was getting about 200-300 players during the day and paying out ~12-15k for first while Venetian was getting about 800-900 players and paying out 65-85k to first for their dailys.
As far as the 2ks and 5k I mean we could hold off on those and let me play the 40 $340s and $550s and evaluate bigger buyins depending on results in those 40, which total about ~16k in buyins.

2p2 has a marketplace forum section where you can get in contact w/ potential investors

search feature

also, strategy archives:

http://www.pocketfives.com/poker-strategy#1

If you are backed for mtts, as an example, can you play sngs and/or cash on your own money on the side......or is this frowned upon

everything should be discussed with ur backer

I'm backed as well. The reason: Cashed out all of my winnings, invested it in something else and started over again with a backings deal.

My deal with my backer is that I can play anything in the limits we agreed on. Cashgames/SNGs/MTTs.

Pro's: Play higher stakes, reduce variance, no need to keep BR Management as your backer will do this.

Con's: If you don't play high enough or have enough volume you give away such a high % of your equity in the tournaments that you don't make a lot of money these days in MTTs, unless you run absurdly well..

Besides our make-up/standard backing I get my monthly costs covered so I never have to stress about that, which is a huge convenience.

^ This isn't normal and common in most backing deals.

In the end it all depends upon you and your backer. The deal/trust you have with each-other and talk everything through until both parties are satisfied.

rh300487
MTTers.com

I just have a few short questions about backing. Im not asking to be backed in anyway im just trying to understand a few things about how things are supposed to go and how it works. What is the process of getting backing, how do people do it? and also what type of deals to you guys follow? Also share some pros and cons of backing if you would like? expirences?

 

Originally Posted by Nate Avenson

I'm working on a school project involving a widescale backing operation and am looking for some insight into why players make the decision to be backed. Mostly interested in what contract requirements you would have in order to sign a backing deal. Backing deals would be for MTT's only. The question I'm trying to answer is: "What sort of contracts would we have to offer in order to convince winning players to accept backing deals?" If you would never in a mirrion years want to be backed, your answers are especially relevant FWIW.

These first two just give me an idea of who you are as player.

1. What MTT stakes do you currently play? How many a day? Total avg daily buyins?
$10-$30 shots of $109+ / 15-25 / $400ish
2. What is your current lifetime ROI in MTT? Over how many games? (use OPR or thepokerDB if you aren't sure)
257K in winnings/ 54% / almost 8000 games
These next two give me an idea of what kind of contract you would be seeking.

3. What stakes would like to be backed for? (live and online)
Online $109+ / Live $550+
4. What is the lowest profit split you would accept for a deal that includes make-up? (not what you would like idealy, but the lowest you would accept before the number became a deal breaker)
45%/55% backers favor

These last three are the most important, please provide as detailed of answers as possible.

5. What are the reasons you want to be backed? (no personal risk, playing higher stakes, cuz I'm obv broke) Please elaborate as much as possible.
To be eligible for high stakes on the regular without having to invest the time of acquiring proper bankroll myself.
To use backing as a boost to my personal bankroll by having a successful backing agreement and ending with both the backer and myself happy. This would be my main reason for considering any backing deal at all.
6. What, if anything, are the reasons you would not want to be backed? (pressure to preform, splitting of profits, volume requirements) Again, please elaborate as much as possible.
#1 Would be splitting profits as finally binking a large score and having to split it stings pretty bad.
Having to explain a play or move to a backer that makes complete sense given table dynamics and such and having backer not understand advance strategies and going ape shit.
Going in debt via makeup due to a bad run. I hate debt, I've went out of my way in life to ensure I'm not up to my eyeballs in debt and being in debt/makeup would make me somewhat restless until it was completely paid off.
7. What else do you think I need to know about your views on backing?
I think when the deals are good and used properly backing can be a great great thing for both the player and the investor. From a players standpoint, a short/medium term backing deal can help that player build a personal bankroll they would otherwise take a year or two to build. I think a lot of deals that people currently get involved in are very bad from a players standpoint and that a fair amount of backers probably have unrealistic ideas on what is expected of players in terms of volume, ROI, downswings, etc.

Thanks in advance to everyone who replys.

Hope this helps.

I'm moving this thread to the front page for members who would like to discuss Poker Backing and U.S. Tax Law or any other aspect of backing and staking.