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  1.  
    Originally Posted by pjformella View Post

    link me mr. clements?

    http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/61...7/index10.html'

    Current posts start with #909
     
    Add jhill3535 to Rail
  2.  
    Originally Posted by yarbles View Post

    what about a situation where a high stakes horse might have 20 to 30k locked up in his poker accounts that belongs to backer and with the sites not allowing player to player transfers... surely 30k can put u over to a much higher tax bracket.. how do u go about withdrawing the money sending it to the backer.. and being free of any irs obligations for that withdrawal?

    I am not aware of any state of federal tax jurisdiction where taxes are determined by withdrawals. Withdrawaing funds and paying back your backer would not create any additional tax liability.
    Add wackyJaxon to Rail
  3.  
    Originally Posted by wackyJaxon View Post

    I am not aware of any state of federal tax jurisdiction where taxes are determined by withdrawals. Withdrawaing funds and paying back your backer would not create any additional tax liability.

    you would need to document it. Esp if the money is getting wired into your bank account.
     
    Add Appst08 to Rail
  4.  
    Originally Posted by Appst08 View Post

    you would need to document it. Esp if the money is getting wired into your bank account.

    Agreed, but if you are filing your taxes correctly, this does not cause one to be in a higher tax bracket.
    Add wackyJaxon to Rail
  5.  
    Originally Posted by jhill3535 View Post

    http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/61...7/index10.html'

    Current posts start with #909

    thanks!
     
    Add fairyhoppin69 to Rail
  6. I'm goin to try to make this quick, but I'll fail. Normally I wouldn't spam "URGENT" in the title, but I'm losing my fycking mind dealing w/ this so, ya, I need some help here. Cross posted on the other site.

    Borgata Spring Open ME ($2500 + $200)

    I sell 50% of my action @ 111% ($30 for 1%) for day 1A to three seperate investors (23%/17%/10%). The other 50% was "my piece" covered by my fulltime backer under the terms of our normal arrangement.

    I play Day 1A, bust promptly in level 4. I then learn there is a satellite to Day 1B ($270 + $30, one re-entry available) and decide to play this, paid in full by my fulltime backer.

    Is there any obligation for me to notify the three investors that I am playing the satellite to enter Day 1B? It should be noted at this point that I would never/have never sold pieces out for a $300 tournament. It should also be noted that two of the three investors follow twitter where I was posting semi frequent updates on my progress in the satellite.

    So, I obv win the seat, otherwise I would never be posting this. No less than 1 hour after I played and won the satellite, one of the investors text me asking me why they weren't given a chance to buy in to the satellite to "win their money back". My initial reaction was "well, I busted quickly the first time around, the last thing I was thinking about was asking people for more money". I then commented that since he knew I was playing the satellite, he should have definitely said something before I won it and I would have tried to work something out in good faith.

    However, since I failed to notify the original investors AND none of them expressed interest before I won, at this point they would be freerolling me if I just gave them their respective %'s for their respective $ value in the satellite.

    One of the investors thinks he is on the hook for 23% in my Day 1B entry, so I need help here, b/c I cannot fathom any way that is right. I was under the impression there is no obligation for me to sell any future action and that the agreement/contract is completed when I bust or cash in the original tournament.

    Did I do anything wrong? I am a super nit when it comes to matters of money and I try to make sure everything is spelled out clearly, so I obviously mismanaged this situation in that aspect--I feel absolutely awful about it too. These people are my friends so the last thing I want them thinking is that I am somehow trying to scam them, pull some underhanded bs or be shady in any way--because I'm not.

    If I did, how do I fix it now?

    This is the last thing I want to be thinking about while playing this tournament so I want to resolve it ASAP. GL to everyone, there are a bunch of sickos left in this thing.

    Thanks in advance.

    -Adam

    CLIFFS(edited):

    -Sold 50% (other 50% was paid by my normal, fulltime backer) in Day 1A, busted.
    -Played a satty to Day 1B (paid in full by my normal, fulltime backer) w/o notifying any of my investors, won the seat.
    -Have well above avg going to Day 2.
    -Do I owe investors from Day 1A any %? If so, how much? What if I don't cash?
    Edited By: elusively Apr 26th, 2011 at 07:17 AM
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  7.  
    Originally Posted by elusively View Post

    I'm goin to try to make this quick, but I'll fail. Normally I wouldn't spam "URGENT" in the title, but I'm losing my fycking mind dealing w/ this so, ya, I need some help here. Cross posted on the other site.

    Borgata Spring Open ME ($2500 + $200)

    I sell 50% of my action @ 111% ($30 for 1%) for day 1A to three seperate investors (23%/17%/10%). The other 50% was "my piece" covered by my fulltime backer under the terms of our normal arrangement.

    I play Day 1A, bust promptly in level 4.

    **Story ends here. The rest is you just trying to rationalize it from their point of view. You don't owe them anything accept a little empathy if they feel wronged, but they weren't wronged so do your best to smooth it over and quit worrying about it. it's unfortunate if one of them feels slighted, but you can't control everything or make everybody happy all the time. just do you best.*****

    I then learn there is a satellite to Day 1B ($270 + $30, one re-entry available) and decide to play this, paid in full by my fulltime backer.

    Is there any obligation for me to notify the three investors that I am playing the satellite to enter Day 1B? It should be noted at this point that I would never/have never sold pieces out for a $300 tournament. It should also be noted that two of the three investors follow twitter where I was posting semi frequent updates on my progress in the satellite.

    So, I obv win the seat, otherwise I would never be posting this. No less than 1 hour after I played and won the satellite, one of the investors text me asking me why they weren't given a chance to buy in to the satellite to "win their money back". My initial reaction was "well, I busted quickly the first time around, the last thing I was thinking about was asking people for more money". I then commented that since he knew I was playing the satellite, he should have definitely said something before I won it and I would have tried to work something out in good faith.

    However, since I failed to notify the original investors AND none of them expressed interest before I won, at this point they would be freerolling me if I just gave them their respective %'s for their respective $ value in the satellite.

    Huh???

    One of the investors thinks he is on the hook for 23% in my Day 1B entry,

    ***thinks he's on the hook or wants a piece of it?

    so I need help here, b/c I cannot fathom any way that is right. I was under the impression there is no obligation for me to sell any future action and that the agreement/contract is completed when I bust or cash in the original tournament.

    Did I do anything wrong? I am a super nit when it comes to matters of money and I try to make sure everything is spelled out clearly, so I obviously mismanaged this situation in that aspect--I feel absolutely awful about it too. These people are my friends so the last thing I want them thinking is that I am somehow trying to scam them, pull some underhanded bs or be shady in any way--because I'm not.

    If I did, how do I fix it now?

    This is the last thing I want to be thinking about while playing this tournament so I want to resolve it ASAP. GL to everyone, there are a bunch of sickos left in this thing.

    Thanks in advance.

    -Adam

    CLIFFS(edited):

    -Sold 50% (other 50% was paid by my normal, fulltime backer) in Day 1A, busted.
    -Played a satty to Day 1B (paid in full by my normal, fulltime backer) w/o notifying any of my investors, won the seat.
    -Have well above avg going to Day 2.
    -Do I owe investors from Day 1A any %? If so, how much? What if I don't cash?


    Just ship the ME and take them out to party like rock stars.
    Edited By: gjallen1975 Apr 26th, 2011 at 07:36 AM
    Add gjallen1975 to Rail
  8. I guess the point of contention is this:

    Am I obligated to sell action in the satellite to Day 1B to the original investors for Day 1A. Actually, fuck obligation, is it underhanded or shady for me NOT to offer them that action, given their previous investment in me? I can't possibly see how I'm obligated, but even if I'm not, if it's shady I want to make it right.

    Would you feel like you were getting screwed if you were them?
    Add elusively to Rail
  9. You obviously don't owe them anything, including the opportunity to get the same action on your re-entry.

    At most, it would have been curteous of you to inform them that you were going to run the satty and allow them to get in on it regardless of whether you would normally sell action for a $300, but you didn't extend that offer for one reason or another. They could argue that you not extending that offer makes you a crummy friend/horse, but they have no case trying to claim action on the re-entry that you sattied into after busting the original deal.

    disclaimer: I'm not backed and never have been, but this just seems like common sense and general contract knowledge, imo.
    Add MeJahAndOmaha to Rail
  10. no you sold action to day 1a, that's what they had action on. the sattelite action was fully taken by someone else. this is a simple case of someone overstepping their bounds trying take a piece of something that doesn't blong to them. tell them to f off, and dont ask for backing from them again in the future. IMO
     
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  11. if some of these guys are your friends wouldnt you want to be able to give them the opportunity to let them put you in the satellite so you can have a 2nd chance. Obv these guys just want to see you do good that's why there investing in you even though this is the biggest tournament youve ever played and its probably pretty unclear what your EV is in this field.
    Add ishuez to Rail
  12. You're playing the cards, but they are gambling too, and maybe aren't as experienced with variance as you, so they are simply feeling slighted that they lost and you like charlie sheen are winning. its just like when an on-line player gets outflopped and starts screaming "rigged ass site...." your friends are being a little selfish, but not in a "rational screw you over way,"just in a "i'm mad i lost and it doesn't make it feel any better that you sattied in after that so I'm going to wine" kind of way. when you think of it like that, i completely understand your hesitation about asking for backing from somebody who just lost money backing you, but maybe you should have said, "hey, i'm getting into this sattie if you want a piece...." and that could have avoided this, but that is also hindsight 20/20 and something you weren't obligated to do imo.
    Edited By: gjallen1975 Apr 26th, 2011 at 07:51 AM
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  13. I would, but money has that effect on people. At the end, it's your reputation. Do with it what you wish.
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  14.  
    Originally Posted by MeJahAndOmaha View Post

    They could argue that you not extending that offer makes you a crummy friend/horse,

    THIS
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  15. I'm going to try to sleep after I write this, but I want to try to make one more thing clear:

    I never even thought about selling my action to the satellite b/c I am already backed for live MTT's $100-$500 (sometimes $1ks). Given that information, in my mind, it seems silly to sell $81/$51/$30 pieces of myself.

    I also offered to sell the same piece of action from Day 1A in Day 1B, which I would have done at no markup or even a discount, but selling pieces to the satellite (or at a satellite price AFTER I WIN IT) seems like a good way to fuck myself IYAM.

    I am willing/trying fix this w/ these people. They are my friends and up until now my reputation for matters dealing w/ money has been impeccable to my knowledge. That is why I'm having such a hard time dealing w/ this. That said, it needs to be fixed now and clarified immediately, before play continues tomorrow.

    So now, I'm asking people to post reasonable solutions so that I'm not fucking my friends/investors in this deal. Money is obviously important in this situation, but it's a distant second to having my friends think I'm a sleezeball.

    This is what we know:

    -They think I fucked them.
    -I would be fucking myself to give them their full piece from Day 1A in Day 1B (even at full price (which WAS offered prior to play commencing today), as I have well above avg goin to day 2)

    So what is a fair/reasonable resolution for all parties?
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  16.  
    Originally Posted by MeJahAndOmaha View Post

    They could argue that you not extending that offer makes you a crummy friend/horse

    i think that would be overstating it. OP prob should have offered a piece of the satty, but stated his reasons why, and who says they would have said yes anyway? easy to say you wanted a piece after its already been won. plus, OP obviously cares about what people think about him, so suggesting he could be a crummy friend over this is prob overstated. if my friends expect me to be perfect, i don't need them.
    Add gjallen1975 to Rail
  17. I have sold action for short series, or even for specific days, and every single time I listed all the tourneys included in the pack, and made clear that everything else I play would not be included in said pack.

    In this specific situation I don't see why they would feel entitled to a piece. They bought into the event, they lost, gg.
     1
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  18. The thing that's really fucking me up here is that I understand why these people are upset that they weren't given a chance to buy into the satty--I really do. The other side is that it would not be in my own best interest to sell pieces to this satellite, which is what I'm having trouble communicating.

    Hopefully I'm not being too naive or too much of a pushover here, but I actually agree that I had a brief lapse in judgement in this whole situation, (even if I'm not obligated to notify them about the satty) which is why I'm trying to make it right.

    If that makes me a crummy person, well, IDK what to say at that point, my intentions were never malicious and I was never trying to get over on anyone. I also have no history of trying to screw anyone over matters of money.

    I'm literally losing my fucking head over here thinking about this.
    Add elusively to Rail
  19. Play with your own money dolts.
    3 
    Add MakeMeMaster to Rail
  20. Don't owe them shit. But just this one time and since they're friends, let them buy pieces for the same price they did for Day1a and figure out what to pay back to your backer so he get's some compensation for footing the entire satty buy-in but now having less action.

    Btw, does your backer buy at markup for his 50%? If not, he puts up half the buy in for 50% of all live action and gets 50%...not put up 100% and get 50%? Kind of confusing and weird that people would want to buy pieces at markup when other investors aren't.
     1
    Add Duffy08 to Rail
  21. satty is pretty much a sitngo man.. they clearly did not have any of the action from the satty but giving them an option to take the same investment from day 1a into day 1b is cool.. but now that ur into day 2 with a working stack... its too late to offer even that.. without of course losing equity.. and if it was just me i would give them the option to still buy in.. but with u being backed for the satty and all.. its not your call... not even being mean here... pretty clear cut and if they cant see the reason in that then something is being left out.. or your friends are dolts
    Add yarbles to Rail
  22.  
    Originally Posted by MakeMeMaster View Post

    Play with your own money dolts.

    Don't be that guy.

    OP, you should have informed your investors that you busted from Day 1A and you intended to play a sattie. Since you didn't, the fairest thing to do would be to offer your investors the same deal for your Day 1B action, selling 50% at $30 per share.
     1
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  23. My advice don't screw your backer...now with your percentage it's up to you if you Want to offer them any..personally I would just worry about going deep and wing it depending how much you cash...
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  24. OP, you say one of the things that is clear is that the guys that originally bought pieces think they are getting fucked. No no no, they are trying to fuck YOU by saying they should get to now freeroll. That's a bunch of shit. They bought pieces of you, you busted the tournament, that's the end of it. Just because the next tournament you played happened to be a satellite to the one you just busted from is irrelevant. Please don't fall for this.

    I've never been backed and have no experience in backing, so my heated rant should hold little credibility other than the fact that I always just try and read these threads from a purely logical standpoint, and this one screams the appropriate play is to say "Nice try guys, I was born at night, but it wasn't last night. Sorry I busted, but just cuz I feel bad doesn't mean I'm gonna let you now freeroll." In fact, I'd very quickly start to get pissed at their angleshoot.

    It's easy to tell you know what the right thing to do is. You owe them nothing. Be a man and stand behind that fact.

    Edit: And I understand you don't want to lose friends over money, but any time someone has tried to screw me out of money, which to me it is completely obvious that's what your friends are doing here, when I don't give in, they don't just stay pissed at me...The know they are the ones trying to screw you, and they will eventually want to make up just as you will, if for no other reason than to try and screw you again down the line.
    Edited By: fairyhoppin69 Apr 26th, 2011 at 02:39 PM
    Reason: the screwers don't stay pissed at the screwee
     
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  25.  
    Originally Posted by pjformella View Post

    OP, you say one of the things that is clear is that the guys that originally bought pieces think they are getting fucked. No no no, they are trying to fuck YOU by saying they should get to now freeroll. That's a bunch of shit. They bought pieces of you, you busted the tournament, that's the end of it. Just because the next tournament you played happened to be a satellite to the one you just busted from is irrelevant. Please don't fall for this.

    I've never been backed and have no experience in backing, so my heated rant should hold little credibility other than the fact that I always just try and read these threads from a purely logical standpoint, and this one screams the appropriate play is to say "Nice try guys, I was born at night, but it wasn't last night. Sorry I busted, but just cuz I feel bad doesn't mean I'm gonna let you now freeroll." In fact, I'd very quickly start to get pissed at their angleshoot.

    It's easy to tell you know what the right thing to do is. You owe them nothing. Be a man and stand behind that fact.

    Agree, the backer is angle shooting here.
    Add wackyJaxon to Rail
  26. Friends feel entitled. Seems to be a lot of people who feel this way nowadays.

    I am a backer, and I do buy pieces of players in this exact same way. I would definitely want to buy piece of satellite in this instance, but I would have discussed it prior to. i would not feel entitled to it at all.

    You owe nothing. If you pay you are enabling them to try to pull this on you and others in the future.
    Add BigRiskky to Rail
  27. My proposed resolution: I offered to let them buy half of their day 1A action at no markup ($27 for 1%), going into day 2 6th in chips. Obv -EV for me, but I am comfortable w/ this offer, although I still don't feel I did anything wrong.

    Does everyone agree this offer is more than fair/reasonable?

    I appreciate all the feedback here, I thought I was going crazy last night.
    Edited By: elusively Apr 26th, 2011 at 04:40 PM
    Add elusively to Rail
  28.  
    Originally Posted by elusively View Post

    My proposed resolution: I offered to let them buy half of their day 1A action at no markup ($27 for 1%), going into day 2 6th in chips. Obv -EV for me, but I am comfortable w/ this offer, although I still don't feel I did anything wrong.

    Does everyone agree this offer is more than fair/reasonable?

    I appreciate all the feedback here, I thought I was going crazy last night.

    sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

    and to answer your question, no i don't think it's reasonable. I think you need to take them all to disneyworld too.
     
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  29. I am going to be hitting the road, and getting a one way flight to where I will be playing. I have a backer for cash games, and will be living for free. Essentially only having to pay for meals and entertainment (which should be a minimum for a little while, because of the grind time at first). I will be getting backed for 200NL at first probably, because the backer doesnt know my style of play all that well and will want me to prove myself. Probably jumping between 500NL as well, in which he will be putting up all my action. I have done this a few times in live cash games, and have always done 50/50. However in this certian situation I made an offer to give 65% for the first week, and take %35 of my winnings. Because this backer is basically doing me a favor.

    I was just curious how if anyone has done this what is the 'standard' stipulations and how make up works and everything? What would be fare to ask for in a 200NL game per day, and obviously what the stop loss is usually set at. I would imagine if I lost more the 10 BI's at either limit I would not be successful at the games and probably head back home. However I am pretty confident in my ability to minimize losses and maximize winning sessions, so I dont foresee this happening. Although I know it could. Basically just looking for some general backing guidelines, and how people have had success and ease between partners in doing it.

    CLIFF NOTE QUESTIONS

    -If being backed for 200NL does the backer hand the player 2k, and report winnings? Should the backer only allow 1-2BI's at a time (on a per day basis). What is the most profitable way for the backer to do this. Assuming the player is competent and trustworthy.

    -When in make up. e.g. Horse loses -$230 first day, and wins $330 the next day. Essentially the horse has pocketed $35 (assuming he is taking %35)? I believe this to be correct I am just looking for some reasurance.

    -Say the Horse is backed for 2 weeks. Has profited 1k in his %35/%50 cut. Decides to play on his own after knowing he can beat the games. Is it unethical to leave the backer and play on his own to keep total winnings? Does there need to be a timely agreement before the Horse starts running of how long he is on 'Contract"?

    Obviously if I am killing the games after 2-3 weeks, and have run above expectation and made 10-15 BI's and felt comfortable grinding the 200nl with that, I would want to do that to keep my maximum profit. I am just unsure if this is kind of slapping my backer in the face or how this usually is handled?

    Any successful backers or backeys post would be helpful.
    Edited By: Bake Me A Apr 26th, 2011 at 11:18 PM
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  30. MMM is pretty much right, backing is for losers
     
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