Both are games of skill, it's so obvious.

 

Originally Posted by MakeMeMaster

Both are games of skill, it's so obvious.

Its not easy to be a successful sports-handicapper, but those that are successful at it over long periods of time are definitely applying some skill to it. What gets me is that there is a carve-out for fantasy sports, when one can argue that the gamble there is no different than the gamble of betting on the games themselves. IMO they both require skill and luck in the short-term, and in the long-term players in the more skillful subset should do better than the players in the less skilled subset.

Obviously, poker is similar where in the long term the better players should do better than the players that are less skilled, while in the short-term bad beats can happen and with variance the gambooool element can take over.

 

Originally Posted by wackyJaxon

Its not easy to be a successful sports-handicapper

It's not easy to be a successful poker player either. I think sports betting and poker have a lot in similar. And both are games of skill.

[QUOTE=MakeMeMaster;6608612]It's not easy to be a successful poker player either. I think sports betting and poker have a lot in similar. And both are games of skill.[/QUOT

well sports imo is more chance than poker,now i understand and get that its about the numbers in long term thinking ,however once the game starts it is completely out of your control what happens and what doesn't, where in poker yah of course going all in is out of your control and in the hands of wht the remaining cards bring ,but u don't have too go all in if u don't want to,poker has a shit load more variables as far as decisions and choices go.......i also think that fantasy football is more skill than sports betting because u can make choices within your roster from what u have or from what left in the free agent market

When you go all in pre flop it's completely out of your hands what happens. What matter is if you did the right decision preflop. Sports betting is a lot like a lot of preflop all ins. Preflop: You search for +ev bets and bet the right amount depending on your bankroll. Postflop: If your bets are +ev, you will make profit no matter what in the long run. (Yes poker has more variables, like post flop play)

I think is dumb to think about which takes more skill, when both are obviously skill games. And it's pretty ridiculous the US gov could see one as a skill game and one not. If they said poker is a game of skill and sports betting is not, you guys should be mad too.

 

Originally Posted by wackyJaxon

Agree that both are games of skill that also have a gambling and a variance element to them.

This is definitely the case, though I think poker involves significantly more skill than sports betting. If you allowed a random number generator to make your sports betting decisions, then after enough iterations you'd probably be just a few percentage points below break even (not including the vig). If you did the same with poker, youd probably have a long-term ROI around -95%. Even leveraging some basic understanding pot odds, knowing hand ranks, etc (i.e. skills) should shoot that up to -50% or so.

It's not even clear to me that the median (in terms of skill) sports gambler would do much better than the random number generator. While in poker this would be abundantly clear even over a small sample. I guess I would say there is more of a correlation between skill and results in poker than in sports betting.

getting pretty tired of the DOJ just blowing smoke and taking their bullshit biased stances but it beats lulls of silence. how about we let some judges decide & let the appeal process begin to start sorting out the inconsistencies.

"The DOJ’s response, which cannot be taken lightly, will no doubt come across as a farce, at least in part (i.e. suggesting there is more skill in sports betting than poker), to those in the poker industry. It doesn’t help that in its response, the DOJ cites the classic Kenny Rogers poker song, The Gambler, and attributes it to Willie Nelson, making one wonder whether they know what they’re talking about."

Just shows how much the DOJ knows .........( NOTHING )

sportsbetting has tons of skill when it comes to deriving the lines. takes tons of knowledge and appreciation of specific nuances that the regular fan might not readily appreciate. the sportsbooks smartly employ skillful line setters who figure out how to allow the book to take expectedly breakeven bets on both sides of a matchup. by figuring out that point they can lay odds that minimize the expectation of the bettor, and by charging the vig, sportsbooks ensure they're expecting to profit from each additional bet wagered.

poker players set up spots and lines and bluffs and traps to do the same thing to weaker opponents. inducing their competition to poorly navegate such mind-fields skillfully is how better competition exploits weaker competition-- fundamental aspects of the game.

but betting breakeven lines that the sportsbook linesetters skillfully set out and paying a vig to ensure you're rarely winning in the longterm despite shortterm luck is a lot more simliar to blackjack, and even w/ the more homework the player does to know more about the math or the stats or w/e other #'s he hopes to employ, that's still not changing the fundamental structure. the breakeven lines + vig favor the bookies and not the player. the skill is there, its just sanctioned outside of the reach of the player/better, its institutionalized on the side of the damn conglomerate casino and the naiveté of the side that continues to lump these rigged games in with peer to peer games such as poker is infuriating.

poker players use skill to thwart competition just as sportsbook linesetters set breakeven lines that the betting masses (w/ vig) can't expect to beat--- that's a goddam house vs player thing, not a player vs player thing, and only in the player vs player things is where these skill arguments really transpire, so honestly, DOJ, step up to the plate and do a little homework (maybe correctly quote the damn cliche'd song you haphazardly threw in on the end of your drivel) if you insist on squaring off on any of these points, stop terrorizing the unbeknownst w/ "ponzi scheme" shit and other bullying scare tactics driven to make loud and halfhearted headlines, or just sit on your hands and let the congressional momentum play out and stop mucking things up in the process. the trains leaving on this one, the balls coming out of your court, this industry's going to be regulated, stop lighting fires and maybe consider how to help protect the unprotected consumers/citizens/taxpayers in this arena you've reinforced for us all.

"the bettor has 'no role in, or control over, the outcome"
lol

 

Originally Posted by Flopnuts1

Super tilting statement by the DOJ. Maybe the DOJ should challenge some top players to a series of HU matches and see how much luck is involved.

Let's send in Phil Ivey and Tom Dwan, by the time those two are done with the DOJ they will own USA!

 

Originally Posted by donkiman

The fact that the DOJ is making such ridiculous statements and comparisons has to raise some eyebrows and leave people wondering..... why?

Clearly this could not actually be the opinion of a group of intelligent people, so what is the motive behind this stance?

Holder used to work for the same firm that lobbies on behalf of the NFL ldo. The same NFL who lobbied heavily for the passage of the UIGEA in 2006.

It's nice that someone in the gambling/ banking/ poker world has finally mustered up the courage to take their case to court. Not since Jay Cohen (who was outgunned) has someone decided to make the DOJ prove their case.

The DOJ likes prosecuting millionaires because their threats have some punch. If you were worth $10 million +, had a few boats, and young beautiful women all around, would you risk spending the rest of your life in a cage when the DOJ offers you 6 months if you forfit some $ and say you broke the law? Most wouldn't, that's why the DOJ hangs 50 years over their heads and makes offers to plead.

But every so often, someone like Michael Allison (google if you don't know who this hero is) stares adversity right in the face and stands up in defense of liberty, consequences be damned.

I just hope this case is heard by honest judges and is not a rigged trial.

didnt read any of the posts here, but lets be honest, poker is pure gamling

shuffle up and deal bitch

Anything has elements of chance.... there's always a chance that something negative will happen that affects the outcome...

star play gets injured in the game
somethng, anything unexpected happens
etc..., etc...

you cannot definitively say the outcomes of all of these other things they are saying are pure games of skill only are not possibly effected by chance. Chance and randomness effects everything that's not predetermined and rigged.