William 'imahustla1' Givens potentially scammed on his WSOP/Venetian stake. I do not know why there was almost no updates on the stake, and its been for a month now with almost no communication or results. I am told from someone else involved with staking him on P5s that he didn't play the WSOP Main event which was supposed to be the highlight of the stake as well. I would at least like to know how much money I am owed by Will Givens and why people have not been paid or contacted about payment as of yet. I know there are people on the boards that are friendly with him, so I am hoping this thread will at least hasten the information flow and info about payback of any results or tourneys not played. I am hopeful its just laziness in updating people, but as time goes on it seems like it is something more.

Here is the link to the stake. http://www.pocketfives.com/f20009/im...netian-638471/

I thought so too and hope somehow its a misunderstanding on my part.

I am posting this since a full month has gone by without any attempt to make payment or to display an update to all that invested.

It's been long enough that he should have paid by now and at the very least given some active responses to investors. Looks like he owes a lot of money too. Hopefully he makes good on his payments, gl to the investors.

 

Originally Posted by Scarypooper

It's been long enough that he should have paid by now and at the very least given some active responses to investors. Looks like he owes a lot of money too. Hopefully he makes good on his payments, gl to the investors.

Thanks Scary, I was only in for 1%, but the shares were a bit in this. I waited a bit before posting this hoping the communication lines would open.

 

Originally Posted by random.chu

surprising to hear tbh

hopefully just a misunderstanding

Yes, I was rather surprised too. I had some small pieces in other guy's WSOP (and related tourney) runs and the communication there was great and people that had money to pay out did so without any problems. I hope its a misunderstanding, and maybe should have checked up on his references, but I know he has been around the MTT scene for a bit even though I don't play many MTTs myself. A couple of the references listed below are people I could have easily checked with as well. Hopefully its just a misunderstanding and there is a happy ending at the end of this.

Quoted from the stakee ad
"References include my previous backer Jerry Herschelw CardRunners/Pokerpwnage Fund. I am trustworthy, Ive done many large transaction and these players can vouch for me Potterpoker, Gboro780,Thecronic420, Hemipowerswt, Big Huni, Iridium, PokerProPlaya08."

all the classy US players getting their scam on

Looks like he only cashed once in this years WSOP. Who knows how many events he actually played though.

Jul 01, '11 2011 Venetian Deep Stack Extravaganza III Event 37 - No-Limit Hold'em $340 69 $790 0 -
Jun 09, '11 2011 42nd Annual World Series of Poker $1,500 No-Limit Hold'em Triple Chance $1,500 60 $5,445 0 -
Jun 05, '11 2011 Venetian Deep Stack Extravaganza III Event 8 - No-Limit Hold'em $550 12

veeRob on 2+2 created a program to check horses participation at the WSOP @ wsopdb.com. It shows he played 25.5k worth of WSOP events, the last being on June 28th. Unfortunately I don't believe there is a way to check Venetian participation except verifying player receipts.

 

Originally Posted by higher wattage

all the classy US players getting their scam on

nice contribution

Wacky, I know you, and from the looks of it, many others are out $ on this stake. My contact with Will amounts to 1 week at a CardRunners camp last fall and occasionally talked to him on skype. With that as a background, I'd be surprised if you are without hope. I could be wrong of course, but I'd bet Will makes amends eventually. In the spectrum of "scams" I'd guess this is closer to the mismanaged funds situation than the actively scamming situation, and my guess would be that he'll make good. I have no involvement from either side and only offer this to give you some hope because I know the shitty feeling that comes with feeling like you've been scammed. Good luck.

"vouch" for him does not by any means mean going gaurantor on his loans as far as i know??

 

Originally Posted by DaEmbezzler

veeRob on 2+2 created a program to check horses participation at the WSOP @ wsopdb.com. It shows he played 25.5k worth of WSOP events, the last being on June 28th. Unfortunately I don't believe there is a way to check Venetian participation except verifying player receipts.

Looks cool, should have started using this when I wasn't getting updates during the stake.

 

Originally Posted by Parligod

Even if he's just slow to respond, I think some poker players fail to understand that when your staked you have obligations to your backers to keep them informed of everything that's going on. If he fails to enter an agreed-upon tournament, he needs to communicate this as well. The true professionals are those who treat poker as a job and understand any obligations they take on. If they can't handle that - even simple communication - then don't ask for a stake.

I probably should have checked up on the people he listed as previous stakes before making an investment, but he had players like Doc Sands take a big chunk of him as well. I am wondering whether Doc got paid or not. I have staked many people (please do not PM me for stakes) in the past, with very few problems and those problems I have had usually were resolved without needing to air anything publicly.

 

Originally Posted by watson5j

solid input...I am sure wacky just started this thread without trying to get in contact with him for the past month...

I wasn't sure if Double_Kyan was saying that closed mouths before this was posted don't get paid, or that this thread is a good idea because I am opening my mouth to hopefully get myself and the others in the thread updated and paid. I think it can be interpreted either way, but you are correct that this isn't my first attempt for information and collection.

I have posted in the stakee thread asking for info, and also have PMed him both during and after the stake. During the stake was trying to get updates. After the stake waited for an answer to my PM for an update, and he asked for my email address. I sent that and no further contact. I did hear from other's that were in on this that they were having various degrees of problems as well. I also had one other person involved with the stake since they knew I had a small piece expressing concern during the stake and asking if I received any updates.

 

Originally Posted by laruegg

why dont you contact the players that he listed would vouch for him.....cause when he skips out on you guys they suppose to "vouch" for him.....no?

I am not 100% sure what vouching means here.

The one person who is listed as a "reference" is definitely not a vouch imo, just showing that he had good experiences elsewhere.

The other guys mentioned by Will that they would vouch for him, never chimed in the thread agreeing that they were vouching for Will. I know when I vouch for someone (which is rare, usually I will just say I had excellent experiences in the past with this person), I am also insuring that this person will make right, however, its just names being listed in this case, so I don't hold them responsible since I didn't check up with any of them prior to the stake starting. Nevertheless, this is a good question, and not 100% sure what it means, I think we all have different definitions of vouch. I tend to agree with laruegg's definition, but only if the person doing the vouching is expressly doing it.

 

Originally Posted by MSU-ATO

Looks like he only cashed once in this years WSOP. Who knows how many events he actually played though.

Jul 01, '11 2011 Venetian Deep Stack Extravaganza III Event 37 - No-Limit Hold'em $340 69 $790 0 -
Jun 09, '11 2011 42nd Annual World Series of Poker $1,500 No-Limit Hold'em Triple Chance $1,500 60 $5,445 0 -
Jun 05, '11 2011 Venetian Deep Stack Extravaganza III Event 8 - No-Limit Hold'em $550 12

This bothers me as well. I don't care of some of the Venetian events or any smaller WSOP event was skipped. I do care that the WSOP Main was skipped as this was the main reason a few of us probably invested knowing that we had alot of other tournaments to reduce the variance of this tournament. If he wasn't feeling well, he should have either posted in his stakee thread or PMed/gotten in contact with his backers. I know my 1% isn't alot here in the grand scheme, but it was still almost an $800 investment. I hope players like Doc Sands who invested a much bigger piece received at least some notice of this.

 

Originally Posted by TheMiltMan

Wacky, I know you, and from the looks of it, many others are out $ on this stake. My contact with Will amounts to 1 week at a CardRunners camp last fall and occasionally talked to him on skype. With that as a background, I'd be surprised if you are without hope. I could be wrong of course, but I'd bet Will makes amends eventually. In the spectrum of "scams" I'd guess this is closer to the mismanaged funds situation than the actively scamming situation, and my guess would be that he'll make good. I have no involvement from either side and only offer this to give you some hope because I know the shitty feeling that comes with feeling like you've been scammed. Good luck.

Thank you, I do hope its the case of mismanaged funds and that he takes payback seriously. I do not know this is the case, but my gut feeling is this wasn't intentionally done. Thanks for your input, and it does seem outside this case, Will has conducted himself professionally in the past.

 

Originally Posted by nbajam

I was also in this and haven't had any communication. I have his email address if that's needed, but it doesn't seem like that's doing any good.

A friend of his mentioned to me that Will's working on selling some assets to pay us back. I told him to try and get him to come here and keep the communication lines open but that obviously hasn't happened either.

Yes, if Will was up front and sharing information, I might still not be happy funds might have been mismanaged (I feel this is probably the case, but don't know for sure), at least the stakers would have been able to talk this out and figure out a solution. Thank you for coming into this thread though and confirming you are having similar problems. I posted a link to this in the stakee thread Will made so hopefully it brings anyone else out in the open also having issues or if they have any updates from Will they can post. It would nice if Will himself came and discussed the situation, gave his perspective, updated stakees, and discussed payback.

 

Originally Posted by quietwinner

just my opinion, vouching is just saying that you/the people you list vouching for you will acknowledge that you have previously dealt with the person looking for a stake. It in no way says you will be responsible for anything they do. I have vouched for people before, and if they shaded out on the agreement, i would say i had previous agreements go perfectly smooth, sorry yours didnt, move on.

hope you get your money

Thanks Austin for your input. I also in no way hold the people that were listed by Will responsible for the money, although it might have been different if they said I vouch for him in his thread. At least when I say I will vouch for someone this is what I mean. Otherwise I will just say I had positive dealings with this person in the past. It would have really depended on the wording they used in the thread as well. If they came in and said I fully vouch for Will, I would have felt they had my back if shit went wrong making my 'investment' more sound. If they came in and just said Will is a great guy and have never had problems with him, I would take that as a character reference only.

I also hope everyone involved gets their money as well, and hope for some acknowledgement of this problem from Will soon.

There is 0% chance that vouching for someone or listing someone as a reference would imply any sort of financial obligation at all. I don't know if people don't understand the definition of the word or what:

vouch/vouCH/Verb
1. Assert or confirm as a result of one's own experience that something is true or accurately so described.
2. Confirm that someone is who they say they are or that they are of good character: "someone could vouch for him".



As for being upset that he didn't play the main, I certainly understand being upset he didn't play that, but you need to be careful when you buy a big package (especially a wsop one that is over the course of a month) as there is no guarantee that a player will play every tourney they list. Nearly every player states that he/she can cancel any part of the package and give a refund, and this includes the main event. So don't buy a package with a high markup on 1500s because they claim they have a big edge in the main.

With that being said, making a package with the intention of skipping tourneys an still listing them so you can charge a higher markup is obv shady (not saying that's what happened here at all)

But anyway, this def seems like a case where a player quit their summer plans early and left Vegas, and not a premeditated scam. I've heard of this happening because the player ran out of money and couldn't afford to stay, had a family emergency and had to leave early, or some other reason. In any of these situations, there should have been contact to the backers explaining why the package was stopped early and saying when he will pay everyone back, and why there was a delay in payment (if any)

Hope everything works out though. It's a shame so many people communicate so poorly in situations like this.

 

Originally Posted by Gags30

There is 0% chance that vouching for someone or listing someone as a reference would imply any sort of financial obligation at all. I don't know if people don't understand the definition of the word or what:

vouch/vouCH/Verb
1. Assert or confirm as a result of one's own experience that something is true or accurately so described.
2. Confirm that someone is who they say they are or that they are of good character: "someone could vouch for him".

As for being upset that he didn't play the main, I certainly understand being upset he didn't play that, but you need to be careful when you buy a big package (especially a wsop one that is over the course of a month) as there is no guarantee that a player will play every tourney they list. Nearly every player states that he/she can cancel any part of the package and give a refund, and this includes the main event. So don't buy a package with a high markup on 1500s because they claim they have a big edge in the main.

With that being said, making a package with the intention of skipping tourneys an still listing them so you can charge a higher markup is obv shady (not saying that's what happened here at all)

But anyway, this def seems like a case where a player quit their summer plans early and left Vegas, and not a premeditated scam. I've heard of this happening because the player ran out of money and couldn't afford to stay, had a family emergency and had to leave early, or some other reason. In any of these situations, there should have been contact to the backers explaining why the package was stopped early and saying when he will pay everyone back, and why there was a delay in payment (if any)

Hope everything works out though. It's a shame so many people communicate so poorly in situations like this.

Gags, I wouldn't have been upset if it wasn't any tourney BUT the main event skipped. When buying into a package like this, you definitely expect the biggest tourney to be played. From what I told, the entire month of July was skipped as well. I also don't think anything here was deliberate, but I still have no idea what is going on, how much money is even owed, and what the future plans are, etc. My main problem is lack of communication & non-payment. Although the not playing the Main Event is a problem, this also comes back to lack of communication. I disagree with you in the case of just cancelling without notice type of thing as he basically said that he would be cancelling the next day tournament if he was on a final table the previous day, etc. I would take it that one should interpret this would mean no matter what happened he would be playing the ME as there are 4 different starting days.

In regards to the vouching conversation, its not really relevant in my case either way since I do not hold anyone that was listed as a vouch responsible in the least bit. If they went into the thread and provided a vouch, I would maybe argue semantics here. I only mentioned the vouching part as one of the reasons I didn't do alot of due diligence on this stake. I think I would have found out that there were no problems in the past, but I took the word of the stakee which is a future lesson to those that are staking to check up on these things.

 

Originally Posted by Iplaythabored

vouched, vouch·ing, vouch·es v.intr.1. To give personal assurances; give a guarantee: vouch for an old friend's trustworthiness.

not saying i agree either way but i dont think vouching for someone is the same as giving a ref

I'm also not sure which definition is correct. Different people seem to have different thoughts here. I will definitely follow-up if there are people vouching for someone else as to what that means to the vouchers in the future if it is something I am taking into consideration when making an investment.

May be a stupid question here, never staked anyone or have been staked. Does he owe the money you staked him or one percent of his winnings?(which doesn't look like much in comparison) Does he also owe you one percent of each tourny he didn't play in that he said he would? Or is it a combination of the three? Also, what if he played the tourny's and didn't cash in a single one would you have to kiss the money you offered goodbye? Sorry if these questions confuse.