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See Where You Rank in Washington

  1. http://news.topwirenews.com/2012/03/...r-US-Players/%

    Is this a joke? "An excellent rating of 9 out of 10." !!!

    What would PS and FT have been? 40 out of 10?
  2. If you were an affiliate and trying to promote your business; you would be saying the same thing.

    You could not sign players up by telling players to go else where. Affiliates make money by saying good things & getting players to sign up through their links.
  3. Agree the article is a joke. It doesn't even mention the anonymous tables, and the lack of players being able to report consistant collusion in cash games because of this. I do agree that the deposit bonuses as well as customer support in general seem to be good, however, the poker client is horrible in general which isn't mentioned at all. If you value customer support and usually prompt payouts than actual poker functionality, then I suppose Bovada is better than Merge, but when compared to any other facet, imo Bovada is far behind Merge. Hope regulation comes soon for US folks, sigh.
  4.  
    Originally Posted by wackyJaxon View Post

    Agree the article is a joke. It doesn't even mention the anonymous tables, and the lack of players being able to report consistant collusion in cash games because of this. I do agree that the deposit bonuses as well as customer support in general seem to be good, however, the poker client is horrible in general which isn't mentioned at all. If you value customer support and usually prompt payouts than actual poker functionality, then I suppose Bovada is better than Merge, but when compared to any other facet, imo Bovada is far behind Merge. Hope regulation comes soon for US folks, sigh.

    Sadly I agree w/ the article somewhat due to the state of poker in the U.S. due to the fast payouts and customer service. I personally don't care about the anonymous tables b/c it hasn't effected me to my knowledge but can see why others would think differently. +1 for regulation soon this sucks......
  5.  
    Originally Posted by DoubleUp28 View Post

    Sadly I agree w/ the article somewhat due to the state of poker in the U.S. due to the fast payouts and customer service. I personally don't care about the anonymous tables b/c it hasn't effected me to my knowledge but can see why others would think differently. +1 for regulation soon this sucks......

    It just would have made the article more believable (esp the 9 out of 10), if the negatives that are being discussed on this board and others were mentioned. As far as payouts and customer service go, Bovada seems to be on top of things, so I would agree with high grades there, but when ranking a poker room, these are usually just variables along with others. If you don't play cash games or sngs, chances are you aren't going to have the same colluders going after you time after time with no player detection and just hoping that Bovada somehow catches them without anyone reporting suspicions. For MTTs its going to be rarer, but also harder to detect when it happens. If you are primarily a MTT player, it can perhaps be an advantage to be anonymous if not worried about collusion, so understand why it might not bother you personally.

    I just don't see how any of the US rake based poker rooms would rank 9 out of 10, and arguably many people would have Merge higher than Bovada and still not come near a 9.
    Edited By: wackyJaxon Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:39 PM
  6.  
    Originally Posted by wackyJaxon View Post

    Agree the article is a joke. It doesn't even mention the anonymous tables, and the lack of players being able to report consistant collusion in cash games because of this. I do agree that the deposit bonuses as well as customer support in general seem to be good, however, the poker client is horrible in general which isn't mentioned at all. If you value customer support and usually prompt payouts than actual poker functionality, then I suppose Bovada is better than Merge, but when compared to any other facet, imo Bovada is far behind Merge. Hope regulation comes soon for US folks, sigh.

    Bovada appears to be taking steps on the collusion front by now allowing players to request Hand Histories 24 hours after a game ends that includes hole cards of opponents in hand.

    http://www.pokernews.com/news/2012/0...erns-12248.htm
    Edited By: WEC Mar 17th, 2012 at 08:50 PM
  7. Do these hand histories include player names, or just player #69, etc.
  8. I'm going to request those all the time. Oh wait, I can't play there any longer cause I live in Washington. sigh
  9.  
    Originally Posted by wackyJaxon View Post

    Do these hand histories include player names, or just player #69, etc.


    Just player #
  10. At least its something, you won't be able to detect serial colluders in cash games and sngs, but can at least look up some suspect play in a 1 time type of incident and potential report any super user issues if they occured. Props to Bovada and Bodog for actually admitting they could use some player help in detecting colluders. Obviously would be better with the player names after the fact, but this is still alot better than nothing. Thanks for posting WEC.
  11. Good Point...Yeah, it is pretty hard to detect collusion in just one sitting. From what I have observed, it generally is a person or group of people feeling a particular player or group of players has been suspect over time.
    Edited By: WEC Mar 17th, 2012 at 10:43 PM
  12. http://www.gambling911.com/poker/%E2...ed-031912.html

    “The fact that we can now offer players this information is another advantage of our anonymous tables and something nobody else can offer,” said Jonas Odman, vice president of the Bodog Poker Network. “Collusion is a natural concern for any poker room but this new additional feature puts the player in full control. This makes the Bodog Poker Network the fairest place to play poker online in the world.”

    Another brilliant idea from this stellar company

    Players can now request hand histories with the hands shown face up in order to identify colluders.... but we will have no idea who "Player43" is and have absolutely no way to verify that Bodog handled the problem, once reported. Also a suspect player has a different number at each table, so identifying a trend that points towards collusion is next to impossible.

    edit: I did not realize this was covered in the other Bovada thread. Mod please delete.
    Edited By: donkiman Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:11 PM
     
  13. I stumbled across the face-up HH's before hearing about this. You don't have to send a request for them. The hole cards just show up after 24hrs.
     
  14. Collusion seems to be rampant in their BDPO satellites.
  15. can you show an example from a HH?
     
  16.  
    Originally Posted by Nate Avenson View Post

    can you show an example from a HH?

    For fuck sake, no, I'm not going to plow through their ridiculous HH interface. I'm just not going to lose any more money playing the satellites.

    edit: Sorry for being an asshole btw.....I'm tilted as hell right now. :)
    Edited By: KingTriton Mar 20th, 2012 at 12:46 AM
  17. Yeah, helping curb collusion isn't really worth the time I guess. It's not like you're likely to get the seats awarded to you, or that the games would be more profitable after the colluders had their accounts closed.

    Wait, no, that's exactly what it's like.
    Edited By: Nate Avenson Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:50 PM
    Reason: grammer
     
  18. It hurts my eyes to read about bovada.I find it quite astonishing that some europeans are still playing there.
  19.  
    Originally Posted by Nate Avenson View Post

    Yeah, helping curb collusion isn't really worth the time I guess. It's not like you're likely to get the seats awarded to you, or that the games would be more profitable after the colluders had their accounts closed.

    Wait, no, that's exactly what it's like.

    Did they change their policy Nate? In the fall bodog told me they close accounts but don't redistribute the funds accordingly.. They said they never award refunds to victims of any violations of TOS committed by opponents. & that the site is basicslly open for collusion what's stopping new people show up & do the same thing, or blocked accounts open new ones etc.. Sounds like a waste of my time. Not to mention I don't know how I'd even find what I was looking for if I wanted to report it. I'm having a hell of a time beating the sngs, über variance & who knows, sure looks like super users & collusion but if I think like that I may as well go to the casino side. God help US poker ASAP..
  20. They have lots of policies, I've never known any of them to be set in stone.

    Collusion is not something we as a community tolerate. We report, they investigate and close the accounts. If new colluders show up, we report them, and their accounts get closed. If accounts get closed, IP's get flagged and opening new accounts gets harder.

    It's not a waste of time. It's responsible, and profitable, to police the tables when necessary.

    FWIW I'm beating SNG's there at a 14.1% ROI, albeit the sample is quite small, 121 games, but the play I witness is the opposite of collusion, and I'm confident that ROIs of 10%+ are sustainable in their SnGs.

    1. play
    2. study
    3. report collusion
    4. ?????
    5. profit
     
  21. I'm sure collusion does occur, but as a regular on the site both pre/post anonymous I have not personally experienced any situations where I felt players were colluding. I play mainly DON's, and 1/2 and 2/4 nl sh cash games. I generally 3 table and play around 750k hands a year. Still run about the same 12-15% in the DON's as I did pre anonymous. Cash game numbers have actually improved a bit since the implementation of anonymous tables. I believe it's important to keep an eye on things, but think some of the paranoia about collusion is a bit overblown.
  22. Nate - It is hard to police collusion when Bovada insists on using anonymous play. Collusion in SNGs is usually done not only with hand histories, but also by looking up past histories and seeing how many times you have played with both the players at the same table and how they behaved in one instance. While it is great that you can now see all the hole cards for a particular game, its only half the battle. Since it is after the fact, I don't see the issue with also giving out the names if they are going to continue with anonymous play for the player to truely get evidence of collusion. Remember, the UB and AP superuser scandals (I know different than collusion), required many thousands of hands before people took it seriously. Also, as you admitted your sample size is too low in SNGs to say if their is rampant collusion going on or not.

    With that being said, since it seems that Bovada won't get rid of the insanity of forced anonymous tables for all games of play, they should provide ALL tools necessary so the players themselves can help police collusion, cheating, or even be able to see if a superuser somehow got on the system. I think Bovada at least took a step in the right direction by allowing hole cards to be shown after the fact, but they need to take another step by either including also player names in these files or get rid of mandatory anonymous play.
  23. If you suspect collusion in one instance and report it, Bovada CAN check to see if the players have been playing together frequently, and collusion is pretty easy to detect at that point. That being said, I see no reason player names can't be shown in these HH's. Since the tables are anonymous during play it wouldn't be useful for HUD's, but would make detecting cheating a lot easier.

    Is there a Bovada Rep here that can pass this info on to management?
     
  24.  
    Originally Posted by Nate Avenson View Post

    If you suspect collusion in one instance and report it, Bovada CAN check to see if the players have been playing together frequently, and collusion is pretty easy to detect at that point. That being said, I see no reason player names can't be shown in these HH's. Since the tables are anonymous during play it wouldn't be useful for HUD's, but would make detecting cheating a lot easier.

    Is there a Bovada Rep here that can pass this info on to management?

    Nate, I think you understand what I am getting at. Even though I am against anonymous tables, if you can review things afterwards in its entirity to check patterns (and also this could be useful for analyzing your own play from a learning perspective), and Bovada makes good rewarding confiscated money on any found collusion, then I don't think I have any valid complaints about it when it comes to cheating and suspected superusers. It would be in their best interests to be as transparent as possible to avoid people from flocking their for purposes of cheating.
    Edited By: wackyJaxon Mar 20th, 2012 at 01:02 PM
  25. What how can you check patterns? Two players sit down at a table player 33 and player 27. They are colluding. After playing for 10 - 15 mins they leave the table and go play on another table now as player 17 and player 04. What patterns can you get from this? Even if you do see something and report it do you think Bovada is going to do something about it or spend the time tracking their play? When Bovada first come out with anonymous tables people were up in arms over it, but now because some people are winning on the site they are fine with anonymous tables.
  26. That is exactly why I am saying that they should give hand histories with player names after the fact. I think people are still upset about the anonymous tables for a variety of reasons. I know I will never play a hand on Bovada or Bodog as long as the policy that stands is in place, especially if the hand histories don't include player names. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. What is happening now can only detect obvious cheating in a one time instance, not long term cheating and collusion.
  27. Sorry if I misunderstood what your were saying, my statement wasn't directed at you but more of a general one.

    I feel sorry for the US players that have to put up with this, hopefully when legislation comes and US players have more choices sites like this disappear.
  28. Without player names we can only detect single instances. But if you detect and report a single instance, it's easy for Bovada to look into the accounts, and VERY EASY to detect collusion at that point. The patterns of collusion are obvious (logging in at same time, sitting at same tables, soft play). Without names they have to do the leg work of the investigation. If they provide the names we can investigate and they can simply verify, saving them time and money.

    In either case (names, or not) I think they will investigate EVERY reported instance. It is in their interest to do so, and they have stated as much. Colluders create the same problem for them that professional players created in the past; they win too much, too fast.
     
  29. Nate - the problem is that the sites have proven they can't be trusted to investigate serial collusion on their own. This even includes the most trustworthy site out there, pokerstars. Bovada and Bodog have said they have the best security detection on these types of things, which is laughable. I do not believe for 1 second that all instances of collusion would be uncovered by Bovada or Bodog security just by reporting one incident and that all money that was effectively stolen from players with assistance of the anonymous mask these 2 sites provide would not be returned to other players. I hope you can see out of the box on this issue and realize that poker players should have the ability to police themselves in addition to whatever measures the site has. Once the veil of anonymous tables is out there, without player names, the site itself is still effectively hiding.
  30. I get what you're saying. I think they'd be open to providing names on the HH's. I don't see a downside for them in doing so, and at least two upsides. Fewer colluders (making tables safer for those recreational players they love so much), and less time and money spent on collusion detection.

    Isn't there a Bovada Rep here we can pass the request on to?
     

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