im not simply trying make a point or something.
please, go re-read every post tyson has made in this thread and tell me with a straight face that hes just doing his normal moderator duties or posting as a fellow player on merge...
i never said hes profiting from this, but there is something personal about this to him, and its pretty obvious...as you can see, the only people who are not wanting more answers about this arrangement are tyson and swish and co...
whether he backs these guys on other sites, or has business dealings with affiliates, its something personal for him, and its quite obvious. maybe hes not personally involved in this or doing anything wrong, but i'd be willing to put money on some type of involvement with these people however small it may be. maybe its just someone blindly defending a long time friend....
nobody who is a "stand up guy" would defend these people WHEN THEY HAVE PROVIDED ZERO REASON TO GIVE THEM A PASS....show me one other example of Tyson immediately basically saying nothing to see here, no need to post further. its a joke and quite frankly insulting to the poker community's intelligence as a whole. its ridiculous especially considering he actually plays in these games.
i will not back down because some guy with a quote "good" reputation on here says theres nothing to discuss...anyone with a brain knows SOMETHING is off here, i'm trying to raise questions....and just as quickly tyson is trying to dismiss them; and thats standard practice??? since when?
i believe firmly that the truth will come out one way or the other. there is ZERO chance in my mind that evechad made any of this stuff up, including the MAing. i'm telling you, you guys need to look at the logistics of this...it simply DOES NOT ADD UP.
Tyson isn't posting as a Moderator, he is posting as a fellow player on Merge. He is entitled to his opinions which you can agree or disagree with. I know I have been opinionated in threads in the past, and while sometimes people agree with me, other times I get blasted which is fine. I don't mind getting blasted as long as it spurs some conversation and I can see the other side to the story which sometimes I agree with and sometimes I don't.Edited By: wackyJaxon Mar 6th, 2012 at 04:31 PM
You are entitled to post your opinions in this thread. I just had an issue with attacking Tyson's reputation when not agreeing with his posts. In the post above, I realize that you just feel that his opinion may be swayed by something that might lead to his objectability. I don't think that is the case, but he can respond himself if he wishes to.
Anyway, I do agree with you that if people are multiaccounting or sharing accounts, there is a problem there. And do have a small problem with the skins themselves doing this if it is against the TOS for them to do so. It looks like RPM has stopped this practice, maybe because of the threads on 2+2 and here. I don't have problems with the horses that have accepted this deal and are playing on their own accounts, and not cheating in any way though. My opinion might be different than others on P5s which is fine. I don't play on Merge for different reasons than this (i.e. because I live outside the US and have more secure options). If a site I was playing on had skins staking players, I don't think this would bother me in itself enough to stop playing there as long as they didn't have ultimate control over security issues and other support issues relating to reporting potential cheating and multi-accounting, etc.18
I agree with everything you just posted...Edited By: ktx49 Mar 6th, 2012 at 04:40 PM
im just shocked that someone who is this involved in the community and even plays in these games would be so quick to COMPLETELY dismiss this. hes not even interested in looking at it further....thats my problem.
when your in a position of power, even something like a moderator, your words have more weight and when he says theres nothing going on and nothing to discuss, many people will almost blindly believe it. while someone like me gets attacked and called things like rigtard, repeatedly, for ASKING QUESTIONS that we all want answers to?
he can have his opinion, your right and I shouldnt be so quick to jump on someone even if they are just defending a friend, but I just have a hard time imagining someone as intelligent as Tyson sees nothing wrong, at all, and no reason to discuss it further(using his words). its just strange.....really really strange.
I canâ€™t believe Iâ€™m doing this.Edited By: tyson219 Mar 6th, 2012 at 05:31 PM
First and foremost, I have no affiliation to Feltstars, Feltstars affiliates, Merge gaming or any other related entities. I play on Hero, I run a stable on Hero and I have communications with the Hero CEO. That is the extent of my interaction with the Merge gaming network.
I do not know the holders or any of the Feltstars ticket account holders. I have seen them on the forums, but have had no interaction beyond that. Until a week ago, none of them were on my skype list. Now one of them is.
I would willingly allow a reputable source to search my email inbox and skype chat to verify the above.
Letâ€™s discussion this situation now.
1) An affiliate is backing players and violating the TOS
2) There are allegations of multi-accounting on those accounts
3) The staking arrangement is suspect and as a result, something fishy must be going on
1) I agree. Itâ€™s a grey area. In my opinion, it should not be allowed or the TOS should be amended.
2) Multi-accounting is an issue and I do not approve. The allegations are very weak and without more evidence there is nothing we can do.
3) This is the big question mark. The basic subplots are (a) are Merge players getting freerolled, (b) apparently a subplot, is this a sign of â€œimpending doomâ€ on the network, and (c) do these players receiving this deal take away equity from players paying to enter
a. Will address below
b. Will address below
c. In my opinion, no. Hereâ€™s the deal â€“ as long as the money is being put into the prizepool, itâ€™s fine. 4 of the accounts are losing money, nobody is being freerolled there. The 1 account making money is Swish. Swish has stated Merge could be the #2 network, above ongame/ipoker/party. He could easily get backed on Merge (I for one would do it in a heartbeat) and would likely be playing anyway. Further, 1 bulleting HS rebuys in my opinion does not give them a large edge vs. the field.
I think 1, 2 and 3c have been adequately discussed. Letâ€™s turn to the outstanding issues now, namely 3.a. and b..
1) Players are backed by a Feltstars affiliate using tournament tickets
2) The money for those tickets is placed into the prize pool for each tournament
3) The players receive 40% after stakeback.
1) The players received rakeback, however, itâ€™s unclear whether itâ€™s split with the affiliate or not.
2) Do the affiliates pay any rake for the tickets? i.e., does a 109 cost the affiliate 100 or 109?
3) Do the affiliates generate any profit above and beyond the rakeback by having these players play (i.e., does Feltstars provide the affiliate with a portion of the rake generated above and beyond the rakeback amount).
For the last 120 days, here are the details on each of the 5 accounts evechad mentioned on 2p2. If anyone has additional names, provide them and Iâ€™ll revise the table.
This is based on data collected from OPR. I can outline the entire analysis if anyone has questions.
Account Buyins Prizes AffiliateRev AffiliateProfit
LorraineYidetteMoss $44,881 $49,389 $31,515 -$13,365
NODOJINMEXICO $38,977 $81,145 $50,895 $11,918
TokenBlackGuy $18,665 $22,730 $14,546 -$4,119
ZiggyMoonbeam $21,535 $17,949 $11,511 -$10,025
llIIIllIIIllIIIllIII $19,846 $21,950 $14,295 -$5,552
Total $143,904 $193,164 $122,762 -$21,142
Total rake paid on these tournaments is approximately $13,000. So if the affiliate is not paying rake or receiving a portion of that rake in some form, then the losses are even less. My conclusion is that the affiliate has lost between 8000 and 21000 on these accounts. It's a lot. But, to put this into perspective, my stable and myself were down close to 10k on Sunday alone, so if you're running a stable, these are loss levels you can accept.
What is my opinion on this situation? The Feltstars affiliate selected a number of high stakes regs and provided them with tickets to play tournaments. The affiliate believed Merge was soft and that these players could make the affiliate money. They expected the results that Swish has delivered to be replicable for the entire stable of players. Instead, they're down. As I've said all along, they selected good players and expected good results. Sans swish, those players have not delivered the expected results. I think the affiliate made poor business decisions and has taken a hit. I do not believe anything shady is occurring.
I cannot answer why tickets and why not cash. Others have espoused some theories which I think are plausible. I don't know for sure and have no basis to speculate.
Reason: fixed table
Based on the data from these players, the only way the affiliate is making money so far is if somehow they are obtaining tickets at a reduced rate or for free.
That being said, there has been zero proof of free tickets or multiaccounting provided by evechad.
Im not going to rule out the possibility that there is something fishy going on, but without further information the claims are pretty baseless in my humble opinion.
The one thing i do have a problem with is the affiliate breaking the TOS, if a regular player did this he would have his account locked and possibly his funds siezed. Either change the TOS or stop the practice of affiliate staking.
And no i dont have any affiliation with merge and have always played on my own dime.
My main point is that I think we all need to consider the possibility that the affiliate is losing money. Plenty of backers have gone broke. Plenty of affiliates have made bad decisions. A lot of businesses go under. A lot of deals are made and in hindsight it becomes clear to a business they were not correct.
I realize the poker world is a shady place at times and people are especially concerned given the history with UB and FTP. I am as well. I have spent a lot of time thinking about this situation, and, in my opinion, the affiliate thought it could make money and ended up wrong. Personally, given the account holders I know of, I still think the affiliate has an opportunity to profit from this.
i dont see sirswish in the wrong and backing stacking agreements are private matters . if anything the affialtes or tos breaking not on him . i think its good thats its brought out in open, about the tickets but i dont blame swish . not sure of equity stolen part either do we have the amount .if the tickets are paid for weres the loss.i just dont see it
Kavilla, we need to speak to you back here in the "Bad Beats" boards. It appears you may broken our TOS agreement by posting in the real world.
Its bad for players because players are buying into tourney where some people are getting in free. I do not believe the tickets are accounted for value wise either because there is no way any backer can ever profit or even come close. I KNOW THEY ARE BEING ACCOUNTED FOR IN THE PRIZEPOOL. swish has 81k in prizes. so his backer gets 60% of that. and swish gets 40%. His backer gets 48,600 and swish gets 32,400. swish has over 50k in buyins so even with great results like swish the backer still loses. TokenBlackGuy has roughly 22.5k in prizes. The backer gets 13.5k and TokenBlackGuy gets the rest. He has roughly 26k worth of buyins so the backer lost roughly 13k on a player in less than 400 games. That is only 2 accounts. And I am positive there are more than 6 ticket accounts, but not so positive as to post the names of them.
-My math could be way off I rushed through it, but i'm pretty sure I did it all right
Your math is a bit off. The table I posted is correct. Here are a couple reasons you're a bit off:
1) I think your numbers include estimated rebuy expenses. The nature of the ticket accounts is that they can't rebuy, so you have to use the non rebuy ABI. For example, that puts Swish at 39k.
2) It 60% after stakeback, which puts a bit more money into the backers pockets.
But yeah, swish is the only account that has made them money and, on net, they've lost between 8k and 21k. I mean, basically the debate is between illegitimate tickets/tournament entries and a bad staking arrangement by an affiliate. You believe the first. I believe the second. I guess we can just leave it at that.
For what it's worth, if your numbers were correct, I would find it hard to dismiss the idea that something is up since total losses would be well over 50k. But I'm 95% sure the table I linked is correct, so the losses aren't nearly as bad.
Listen, I was just messin with u Killa, cause its fun to do. You and & have been on final tables together cussing the crap out of Merge and all it's BS. Even when we take down some $s. So heres my problem. it's like you're sticking a flag in a mole hill! I guess I need a life but I just finished going thru all of this again, some of the posts on 2+2 as well & David Jungs answers. (Don't know why, but I want to trust that guy!) If this is it, I give up, Merge wins! Oh wait, they always win. I mean sure, lets nail these turds if we can, but the fine print in the TOS is no place to start. They can change it tomorrow. Staking, prop players, etc., it's allowed in Poker! Nuthing new. I'm sure that there are crooks about in the current online poker world. I don't think Skype should be allowed on any computer that is used for online poker! Silly me, of course it's acceptable for 6 to 8 people to Skype each other at the tables. But this just kinda looks like you're beating a dead (or live) horse. This guy sir swish may be the biggest crook in the land (or not) but it does seem like a grey area that just needs to be cleared up. I don't think I see where he has done anything that most of us would at least consider.
I'm more worried about that mode guy!!! Hes a scary guy! Much scarrier than you.
Now, I'm going back to the Bad Beat board where people understand me. See you there! Riggtards unite!
btw, Not making light of people taking this issue on. I just think there are bigger fish to fry, so to speak! Thats one reason I hang around this board. The crap will hit the fan soon, and a whole bunch of you can wear your shocked face again.
I don't have your fucking ball!
Playing poker is all the math I can stand! I hate playing Merge. I want free tickets too, it sucks that I can't have them. I would play looser than I already do, and at least have more fun. Of all the bad stuff I suspect goes on with any US facing site these days, what do you really have here? My guess is, the skins apologize and drop the practice. So you have done a good thing. But I just don't see where this goes any deeper than that. Someone said way back in this thread that ultimately this practice brings more, better players to the network. Even if it's rigged & I'm getting screwed, occasionally I get heads up with these people and I love it! I actually base most of the MTTs I play on who is registered. So if a skin is helping fill these with solid players, I don't think I have a problem with it. If your "math" is showing that the skin is profiting in a significant way through an intentional "scam" that's a problem. If you can show that this practice is encouraging collusion, then let's lower the boom on em. But I don't think you get there. There may be some wording in a TOS that needs adjusting, but staking, propping with pros is just not a problem for me. Don't we all wish the traffic and play on US sites was more like Poker stars or Full Tilt used to be! I have 4 t-shirts for busting pros at FT! We now know a few of those guys had issues, but the majority were just good folk helping grow the game.
Like I said, I'm a riggtard, I think the whole thing is fishy and I am only following this because at first I thought you may have found something. Lets get on line Poker regulated by competent, experienced gaming authority in the US. Make sure it's taxed properly so the IRS is involved. Nobody wants to mess with those guys. And then, lets see if any of these current providers want to play here. I have never been suspicious of any live poker room, no matter how bad the beat or run. I believe we all want to be more confident about US on line poker sites!
Ok, I'm done. Back to the riggaments!
soooo....after everything tyson posted(btw, thanks tyson for even doing that, i didnt expect you to respond...respect.) and two other posters math, it just confirms what ive been repeating over and over....Edited By: ktx49 Mar 7th, 2012 at 06:06 AM
what would cause tickets that are supposedly legit/accounted/paid for to be worth less than their face value to the backer?? there is just no way the backer believes these tickets are worth the same as money...and if he has paid for them or received them legitimately.....think about this.
again, im like 99.9% sure of one thing here, and that is that NOBODY is in the business of burning money...and if they are, why would they do it in a manner which would get them this kind of negative attention etc? im sorry but common sense tells you that there SOMETHING going on.
i guess ill give u guys another day to speculate and argue before i have to directly state what i think may be going on
Normally affiliates are paid a % of rake generated by players brought to the site by affiliates. Perhaps Feltstars is paying the affiliate in tickets instead of cash, probably with a higher %. If this is the case then it all makes sense.
so then why dont all of the skins do it?Edited By: ktx49 Mar 8th, 2012 at 05:02 AM
i doubt merge can afford to have a skin freeloading 109 tickets at their expense ,these tickets have got to be paid for by the skins,it seems crazy to think they can make basically counterfeit entriesEdited By: double_kyan Mar 8th, 2012 at 07:07 AM
and merge doesn't see this and money is missing everyday,somebody is adding money somewhere and that is a lot of days to not see the money correctly
how does the skin gets tickets? i assume they can just flat out buy them from merge ,why in the heck would merge just hand them 109 tickets ,idk just tryn to see the BIG pic and the bottom line
the TOS stuff is a diff story and i agree if TOS is violated than its time to realize that this is unfair to every1 as a whole
jus read page 7 and i was totally thinkng the same thing as far as knowing what your horses are playing as far as keeping track of them is concerned ,it makes a lot of sense to use tickets rather than cash
also i have to assume that starting a poker site is required to have deep pockets knowing that u will be losing money out the gate,seems like this skin[affiliate] is trying to make it thru actually profiting in the game rather than spend it on building a player base..........david jung[hero poker] uses freerolls and he pushes certain regions for his growth' he is paying out of his pocket the way he wants to,so he can[in his eyes] further his site in hopes of a nice return in revenue
i assume felt stars has a vision of making money off the game as a whole and doesnt have the interest nor patience in building a large player base
i use david jung as my example because i play on hero poker and i see what he and his team does to attract players
so, what would make tickets that are apparently legitimate be worth less than their face value? ill repeat this for the tenth time, but that is the only way this arrangement makes sense. others did the math for me, and unless your interested in slowly burning tens of thousands of dollars using some elaborate method of ticket-only backing; this simply doesnt add up.
this isnt rocket science people.
I gave an possible explanation but apparently you just skip over posts that make sense.
Well, if you must know, I'm in my second year of med school and I'm training for the Summer Games. What are you up to?
http://www.drcheckraise.com/phorum/r...97fa33695b716aEdited By: wackyJaxon Mar 9th, 2012 at 09:53 PM
This is a forum I am a part of and a guy that has helped me get money on feltstars via paypal. He is a sponsored pro, but I dont understand how he can give out tickets. I cant transfer tickets, just as no "normal" player can. The other weird thing is I was kind of curious if he would help me get money out and this was the email conversation that transpired:
Mar 1 (8 days ago)
if i transfer you some feltstars money, can you put it into my paypal? I have an emergency and need to withdraw a couple hundred. I would greatly appreciate it.
On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 2:59 PM, Jake Hintz firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
i just got a shark placed by my name on sharkscope.com for sng's on merge. If you would allow me, I would like to represent team drcheckraise in my live playing also. I dont play much live, but im making the switch to playing poker for a living. I am in need of a website and really dont know where to turn. I was just wondering if you could point me in the right direction. Thanks.Reply
On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 10:36 AM, Jake Hintz <email@example.com> wrote:
So, im doing very well on my bankroll. Have vastly improved my stats. If you want to, you can come watch me play in my rebuy...let me know what you think...im pretty deep in it right now.
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Jake Hintz <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
ahhhh...i see...they are on the other side of the world...lol
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 1:02 PM, DrCheckRaise <email@example.com> wrote:
Probably because it is 3 am at Merge
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Jake Hintz <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
how come no transfer yet? its unusually slow today.
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 10:50 AM, DrCheckRaise <email@example.com> wrote:
Your transfer to jakehintz for $150 has been submitted successfully. Your reference number is #238126.h
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Jake Hintz <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
ok...sending 150 to your paypal right now...done!
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 10:19 AM, DrCheckRaise <email@example.com> wrote:
Whatever you decide brother....
On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Jake Hintz <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
hey doc. I was wondering if you could deposit for me again. I am going to try to move up levels a little bit. I had a good score live and want to get going online with some bigger games also. I am looking to get $100-150 if you can do that. I've been killing the sng's and want to grind up a roll for the big series that is coming up.
On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 4:40 PM, Jake Hintz <email@example.com> wrote:
sent via paypal just a sec ago.
On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 4:05 PM, DrCheckRaise <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
I hope you don't take as long to transfer to my palpal as I took to transfer to your player account email@example.com
On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Jake Hintz <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
for sure...if you are up for some omaha training around 2 my daughter will be napping for about an hour or 2. if not thats absolutely fine.
On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 11:52 AM, Jake Hintz <email@example.com> wrote:
alrighty then...thanks...appreciate it.
I watched them videos and i use the same strategy in the double ups. I have been building a roll with my gf that way...i will have her watch them and join the website also.
On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 11:44 AM, DrCheckRaise <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
Transfer complete... now.. go to the game client,,, click on Poker tables.... then custom, then look for a table named DrCheckRaise, Enter that table.. bring all your money to the table..... I will bet $20 on the first hand.. you raise to 22 and I will fold..... NO RAKE...... then the next hand I will bet 7.50 you raise all in and I will fold and you will have your $50
The password to get in the table is 54321
On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 12:20 PM, Jake Hintz <email@example.com> wrote:
On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 11:19 AM, DrCheckRaise <firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
Your transfer to jakehintz for $22.50 has been submitted successfully. Your reference number is #234863.
When this transfer is approved, text me cell email@example.com let me know.. Then I will create a private table for us so that we can both sit down and I will dump the rest of the $50 to you... that's one way to get around transfer restriction...
On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Jake Hintz <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
no problem...it happens...its poker!
On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 10:59 AM, Jake Hintz <email@example.com> wrote:
what link am i looking for?
On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Jake Hintz <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 10:42 AM, DrCheckRaise email@example.com> wrote:
If I can survive this other double up I am in I will have you some money
Jake HintzMar 1 (8 days ago)
if i transfer you some feltstars money, can you put it into my paypal? I have...
Mar 1 (8 days ago)
Cant afford it.. Just paid rent and utilities.. but you can post on my site and maybe some others will and I will vouch for you..
This leads me to believe something fishy is going on.
This guy is a sponsored pro on feltstars and they give him $1000 a month to play at the tables. He also doesnt pay any rake yet gets all the advantages of being an A-high VIP level. He said they way he got sponsored was by referring people to the site. If anyone needs evidence of this, I have an email of exactly what he said.
Reason: email addresses removed