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Have To Vent!

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  1. Pumpkin Pie Pumpkin Pie is offline

    Toronto
    Canada

    Posts: 652
    Joined: Mar 05

    Oct 3rd, 2005 (10/3/2005 8:54pm)

    Holy $#%^& I'm in the stars $11 rebuy with 40k left in chips.

    -Short stack in early position goes all in with 14K (had 3s)
    - I re-reraise all in for 40K with 44
    - small blind thinks about it, has 42K left AND CALLS with A-J off!!!
    - hits a J
    -63 paid out
    -finished 64th

    UNREAL!!!!!!!

    WHO CALLS 2 all ins and puts their ENTIRE stack at risk ON THE BUBBLE with A-J off!!!!

    Ok - I feel better...just a bit

    Pumps
  2. chrisp1516 chrisp1516 is offline

    Loveland, CO
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    Oct 3rd, 2005 (10/3/2005 8:58pm) in reply to Pumpkin Pie

    Who puts themselves all in with 3's on the bubble? I know it is best to be aggressive, but any over pair/overcards have you beat. Don't post this in the bad beat forum, post it in the bad decision.
  3. gbmantis gbmantis is offline

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    Oct 3rd, 2005 (10/3/2005 9:22pm) in reply to chrisp1516

    there is nothing wrong w/ being overagressive on the bubble..

    nothin wrong w/ your play there pumpkin
    1
  4. Pumpkin Pie Pumpkin Pie is offline

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    Oct 3rd, 2005 (10/3/2005 9:26pm) in reply to chrisp1516

    I think you misunderstood - I reraised a short stacks all in of 15K preflop with 44. The guy in the small blind then calls with his entire stack with A-J off.

    The point is who calls 2 all ins with A-J off for their entire stack on the bubble???

    His decision was horrible!
    Thread Starter
  5. 187_HoMiCiDe 187_HoMiCiDe is offline

    Loveland, CO
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    Oct 3rd, 2005 (10/3/2005 9:33pm) in reply to Pumpkin Pie

    gotta realize your in a $10 tournament. when u re raise blinds if they have any 2 face cards there gonna call putting you 50/50 for the side pot...
  6. Pumpkin Pie Pumpkin Pie is offline

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    Oct 3rd, 2005 (10/3/2005 9:40pm) in reply to 187_HoMiCiDe

    The side pot wasn't really an issue cause if ya lose the hand you're out - he was staring at 2 all ins in front of him and flat called his entire wad.

    Please someone tell me he's crazy and not me!

    (thanks GB)
    Thread Starter
  7. jsbyun jsbyun is offline

    Pleasanton, CA
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    Oct 3rd, 2005 (10/3/2005 11:35pm) in reply to Pumpkin Pie

    I would have called.
  8. sturgeball sturgeball is offline

    Greensboro, NC
    United States

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    Oct 3rd, 2005 (10/3/2005 11:42pm) in reply to jsbyun

    As Mike Matasouw said, calling all in with two 4s, He could have 86 off suit and you arent even favored...BOo hoo Hoo

    sturge
  9. djinoc djinoc is offline

    Fountain Valley, CA
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    Oct 4th, 2005 (10/4/2005 12:43am) in reply to Pumpkin Pie

    Where were you in position? If you were on button, I think just a call of his All-in would have worked. Risking all your chips with others to act behind you is always risky. (Especially in these small buy-ins) You will get terrible calls like AJ. Too bad for you he made the "right" call.

    Also, if you had an average stack, why risk it on 44... that aint much of a hand
  10. GambleAB GambleAB is offline 1. I'm awesome

    Las Vegas, NV
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    Oct 4th, 2005 (10/4/2005 12:55am) in reply to Pumpkin Pie

    You should look at your own play first.

    You are calling off over 33% of your chips on a hand that you are PRAYING will be a coinflip. Not smart.
     
  11. Pumpkin Pie Pumpkin Pie is offline

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    Oct 4th, 2005 (10/4/2005 1:03am) in reply to djinoc

    I had a strong feeling I was ahead of the short stack all in in early position. I wanted to isolate in middle/late position.

    Perhaps it's just me but in his position I'd have to assume that I'm behind in the hand...so to risk the entire stack on A-J off seems crazy. Yet a good player like Jsbyun says he'd have called - ???????

    I had also been playing solid and showing a lot of strong winning hands - there was nothing to indicate I was making a move of anykind. Surely re-raising 25K would indicate some strength.
    Thread Starter
  12. jsbyun jsbyun is offline

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    Oct 4th, 2005 (10/4/2005 1:18am) in reply to Pumpkin Pie

    I'm not a good player, but honestly I don't know what I would do in your shoes because I don't even know how big the blinds are. If there are already a lot of chips in the pot, I would call for sure. Either way, it's not like he called you with 72 off or something, it's AJ. Lastly, this thread is kind of in the wrong section.
  13. gbmantis gbmantis is offline

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    Oct 4th, 2005 (10/4/2005 1:27am) in reply to GambleAB

    hey gamble...quick question bud....

    im not mocking you here or anything like that....just trying to learn.

    what did you think i had on that hand when i had q9 on the q9x flop and pushed against your kk?
    1
  14. Pumpkin Pie Pumpkin Pie is offline

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    Oct 4th, 2005 (10/4/2005 1:29am) in reply to GambleAB

    JS, you ARE a good player cause I just watched you make 19K in the sunday nighter.

    The blinds were 1-2 and just about to move up - she made the move with 14K just before the blinds were about to hit her in 2nd position.

    There were no chips in the pot.

    I never said it was a bad beat, we're "discussing a poker hand" so I think it's fine here.

    My move was perhaps on the aggressive side GambleAB but with the blinds going up, she looked vulnerable.

    I appreciate genuine feedback - thanks

    Pumps
    Thread Starter
  15. sturgeball sturgeball is offline

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    Oct 4th, 2005 (10/4/2005 2:21pm) in reply to Pumpkin Pie

    just as I said, GambleAB is a smart guy, I have an AQ suited on the button, can can kulua whatever his name is, just lost a huge pot, he is steaming, and he raises it up, I make it 40 to go and he says im allin with two 4s...lol mike matusow is sooo funny...

    I am mucking 4s in a shot..

    sturge
    (although I suck)
  16. Sooted57 Sooted57 is offline

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    Oct 4th, 2005 (10/4/2005 2:45pm) in reply to sturgeball

    Honestly, I think your gamble with 44 out of position is worse than the guys call with AJ... bubble or no bubble. To him, your bet looks like exactly what you say it is.. an isolation bet. If you actually have a hand, you're probably not just going to jam it right here. He has excellent odds to call, especially if he puts you on a weaker ace. As tight as I normally am in regards to calling off my chips.. this type of situation is an exception, where I could potentially snag a good pot with a decent hand, with good odds, against what I see as an obv isolation bet. You can't justify plays like this just because your're on the bubble. Many players (myself included) aren't playing just to get their money back, and wll do whatever they think is necessary to accumulate enough chips to get to the final table, even if it means busting on the bubble.
  17. CUpokerplayer CUpokerplayer is offline

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    Oct 4th, 2005 (10/4/2005 3:00pm) in reply to Sooted57

    I think this post is correct, and the push with 4's is wrong.
    Even if you thought you were ahead, what hands are you a big favorite to? 2-2 3-3, and randome mixed rags.

    Your push looked like isolation because it was. I don't know if I call with AJ but if he put you on a mid/low pair (just like you had), he had 6 outs to pop you both. He called...it worked. He picked up about 55k in chips. Probably enough to fold to the FT.

    GG you.
  18. beauright beauright is offline

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    Oct 4th, 2005 (10/4/2005 5:16pm) in reply to Pumpkin Pie

    Not to be rude, but this is in the wrong section. WE HAVE ALL HAD BAD BEATS AND TRUST ME THIS ONE IS NNOOOOO BIG DEALLL!!!!

    beauright
  19. jsbyun jsbyun is offline

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    Oct 4th, 2005 (10/4/2005 5:22pm) in reply to Pumpkin Pie

    I wasn't trying to be rude either, at least I didn't think I was, but the title of your thread says 'Have to Vent!' which usually indicates a bad beat that you are upset about. The 'hand info' you posted is incomplete and getting called by AJ shouldn't surprise anyone even if it was the wrong move.
  20. Stinger885 Stinger885 is offline

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    Oct 4th, 2005 (10/4/2005 10:54pm) in reply to beauright

    IMO his call with AJ is horrible, since you'd make that same isolation raise with AK, AQ, maybe even JJ or QQ. I don't think I'd want to get involved with 44 though.
     
  21. Games Geek Games Geek is offline

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    Oct 5th, 2005 (10/5/2005 10:35am) in reply to Stinger885

    So you think the call is horrible because someone <span>could</span> have a better hand? Personally, I might make this isolation bet with ANY good hand, AA-JJ, AKs, etc. Being on the bubble w/ short stacks, even with AA I'm not looking to invite too many more people to the pot, especially if I have the chance to knock out a short stack and eat his chips.

    What's my point? You can't call the play "horrible" just because it's possible the guy had a better hand than he did, that's almost always the case.

    A short stack All-In (could be any hand), then a desperate isolation play signaling you're desperate for no more callers?

    I make the call here too, I think. It's risky, sure, but taking risks at the right time is an important step on the road to any tournament finish.

    I don't think you can complain going in with a ~2% edge over him and losing.
  22. Stinger885 Stinger885 is offline

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    Oct 5th, 2005 (10/5/2005 3:41pm) in reply to Games Geek

    Do you have to take risks to go deep? Yes. Is calling TWO all-ins with AJ a good risk to take when your stack is still solid and you're one from the money (or anytime in the tournament for that matter). NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  23. Games Geek Games Geek is offline

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    Oct 5th, 2005 (10/5/2005 4:57pm) in reply to Stinger885

    You keep saying "calling TWO all-ins" but it's been explained several times how these All-Ins don't necessarily signal anything too threatening. One is from a desperate short-stack, and the immediate following is an unecessary overbet, signaling he's afraid of callers.

    It's perfectly reasonable to read this situation as such and make a call, assuming at worst you're up against underpairs.

    Maybe it's NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! to you, but it's clear plenty of decent players disagree with you. A call and win in a situation like this is just the kind of play that can make the difference between fizzling out on the bubble because you're waiting for premium hands, and finishing strong in the money.
  24. Sooted57 Sooted57 is offline

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    Oct 6th, 2005 (10/6/2005 3:20am) in reply to Games Geek

    Vey well said Games Geek

    I can't even tell you all how many times, as a scared newb player, when i've laid down a hand like ak-aq-aj in this situation in the last 5% of a field where I know in my mind that I have the best hand, or at least very good odds to call, only to fold in a big pot that I would've won because I was too scared to gamble. I could give 2 shits about the bubble, or the obv isolation bet in front of me. Picking up on these types of bets, and getting your chips in is what separates the biggest winners, from the average winners in my opinion. If you're even thinking about the bubble, other than ways to capitalize on other players fears of it... you shouldn't be playing in MTT's. Sure this fold might get you a guaranteed 1.000025x your buy-in back, but it might also be the reason that you don't get 200x your buy-in.

    As you get more experienced in the game, you get better at recognizing these types of fear bets where it is quite likely that your hand is good, or at least not dominated. You don't have to make these types of calls on your stack... but you don't have to make it to the final table either. When you're in the last 5-10% of a field you have to pick your spots very carefully. AJ is about the minimum I want to have here... but I think I'm going to get my chips in on the button or blinds nearly everytime with TT-AJ or better, unless my read on the previous bets gives me a good enough reason to fold.
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