pokerstars Game #57513060397: Tournament #406010685, $50+$5 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level X (300/600) - 2011/02/11 19:31:39 ET
Table '406010685 53' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: sosickPL (10291 in chips)
Seat 2: mingaw (13136 in chips)
Seat 3: smokrokflock (13035 in chips)
Seat 4: AltyAA (47291 in chips)
Seat 5: cluzzi (18840 in chips)
Seat 6: chupoptero (13141 in chips)
Seat 7: derek8 (8319 in chips)
Seat 8: rentsue (1563 in chips)
Seat 9: SamuraiPlaya (18088 in chips)
sosickPL: posts the ante 50
mingaw: posts the ante 50
smokrokflock: posts the ante 50
AltyAA: posts the ante 50
cluzzi: posts the ante 50
chupoptero: posts the ante 50
derek8: posts the ante 50
rentsue: posts the ante 50
SamuraiPlaya: posts the ante 50
cluzzi: posts small blind 300
chupoptero: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SamuraiPlaya [Jd Jh]
derek8: folds
rentsue: folds
SamuraiPlaya: raises 720 to 1320
sosickPL: folds
mingaw: folds
smokrokflock: folds
AltyAA: raises 1095 to 2415
cluzzi: folds
chupoptero: folds
SamuraiPlaya: raises 15623 to 18038 and is all-in
AltyAA: calls 15623
*** FLOP *** [Th 2s Ad]
*** TURN *** [Th 2s Ad] [Ks]
*** RIVER *** [Th 2s Ad Ks] [Kc]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
SamuraiPlaya: shows [Jd Jh] (two pair, Kings and Jacks)
AltyAA: shows [As Td] (two pair, Aces and Kings)
AltyAA collected 37426 from pot
SamuraiPlaya finished the tournament in 194th place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 37426 | Rake 0
Board [Th 2s Ad Ks Kc]
Seat 1: sosickPL folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: mingaw folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: smokrokflock folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: AltyAA (button) showed [As Td] and won (37426) with two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 5: cluzzi (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: chupoptero (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: derek8 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: rentsue folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: SamuraiPlaya showed [Jd Jh] and lost with two pair, Kings and Jacks

the guy is running at 45/27 nearing the uttons and run like Godsbubble and stil 3b/snaps and oh wow you hit the flop ?

There is little to no secret for those who know the truth. That these top players mash buttons and run like Gods... PERIOD

Alty, you have ZERO edge on me, so go fym & die you pos run good @#@A!A!A!#

 

Originally Posted by MakeMeMaster

Are your posts well hidden levels or are you serious?

his 3b/call here is awful, just as awful as your raise/call vs me last year on FT bubble and if you dont think so it confirms everything I already know about you...

LOL is this real....i agree 2010 tlb was rigged!!!!!!!!!!!!

Im saying that cuz i got 2nd...was just kidding...but altyaa and mmm are both very good players. gl to you and them in future

I think you should just fold JJ.. doesnt seem like your hand

 

Originally Posted by SamuraiPlaya

I did not realize that you finished second, which is an awesome achievement. And your an Ohio Kid :)

My statements are definitely out of frustration, but you say both of these players are awesome players ? What do you base this on, results ? This subject has been debated more than we can possibly ever hope to do in this thread but maybe you can comment on a few points I have.

Both of these plays I have vented are less than optimal to say the least. In fact I discussed both plays with a few people that are very good in terms of analyzing hands as well as being top reputable players. For discussion sake I will leave them nameless for now.

In both cases the A9os and ATos have less than 44% vs my enitire range. The MakeMeMaster hand is the worst because tournament value is more of a factor. We were 14 handed and 2nd & 4th in chips at that time.
You can believe whatever you want, but everything is based upon gameflow and reads. If both villain anticipate you shoving really wide, which happens a lot these days, and they know that. They will 'hero' call you light, because they expect you to 4bet jamm a whole part of your range. They don't expect you to fold all hands that don't fit into your 'correct' 4bet jamm range but you might jamm low PPs and Ax suited or even a suited connector.. Both hand show that there read was wrong at the time. but that doesn't make it a bad play in general. It's super light/high variance, yes. But a few days ago Kleath just pwnd me on the $ bubble where I raised and he 3bet snapped me for 35BBs with A9s. He was right.

So don't judge based upon seeing somebody doing something your mind might not understand. Because sometimes your mind is just not evolved enough to understand what these great players are doing. Both of them you describe here are obviously great players and will stick around long if they keep on putting the time and efforts.

We can discuss the validity of both raise/calls but I can assure you that both plays have been deemed "bad" and definitely less than optimal. Assuming this what can we deduct here ?

- The biggest winning MTT players do not always make the best and/or correct plays.
Yes. Definitely true. Got to love MTTs... Also the main reason they are and will always be so much more valuable then cashgames or higher stake SNGs

- Some of the biggest winning MTT players are therefore NOT always by default the actual best players in terms of skill.
You are a smart person........

- "running good" or at least running ahead in these key spots in tournaments will directly affect the results in tournaments especially in selected samples. It has been also mathematically agreed upon on 2+2 that 10k to 30k MTTs need to be played in order to even get close to what a "true ROI" of a player is.
Yes, definitely true again... Look at Firaldo today.. The poor guy gets 9th in the $1K.. didn't see how it went but 9th or 1st is a lifetime money diference.......... Fuck his live and all those other lucky 8 that get there *(!(@*(!(*!@%!@()% ;-)

So, given all this you just see AltyAA and MakeMeMaster and see their results and just assume they are "great" players ?
Yes they are......... Poker isn't a game of 1 result and both players keep coming up with amazing results. Yes you need luck in poker but without it you can't win. You need to gamble and go with your reads. Sometimes you suck-out, sometimes you hold and sometimes you loose.. Choose a job or hobby with less risk and gamble and that might suit you better?

Maybe you have even played more with them than I have but I will use the direct emperical data I have to judge them. Which is the above hands as well as other key hands in other tournaments vs a few other so called "legends" of the MTT world..

Poker in the longterm is about making more and better +EV decisions than your opponents longterm and with the structures of MTTs online and the lack of sample live simply put MTTs are not the best a fair way to judge a players overall skill level.
Yes, Poker is about long term and pushing your edges the best. But mistakes are human and you need to make mistakes to progress.. optimal isn't optimal against some and some need you to push it further or not...

In closing, my own opinion of these 2 particular players is that they both of these players possess skills of blatant aggression even in spots where they are just donating all the equity and have definitely "ran good".

There are so many MTT "legends" like these 2 who were worshipped 4 & 5 years ago that are not even around anymore and as with these 2 potentially, there will be many more that will not be around in another 5 years.

As with myself, maybe I am no good and I wont be around either.

I would say gl to Alty and MMM but I would not mean it. I am a competetor and a very serious person I call it like I see it...

my 2cents

Im flattered though you think I'm a legend never been called that before. (by someone other than me that is)

 

Originally Posted by little kraut

I wont get in to this too much just cuz its not something I do...But as for Altyaa Im very good friends with him and if ur 4 betting range is so tight to where making a call with a 10 is bad then maybe ur not picking up enough spots in other tournies where people just run over you by 3 betting. Everything is about game flow and perceieved ranges. Obv both of these plays were bad because ur range is much tighter than they percieved it to be. Anything and everything can be right or wrong in mtts. These two guys put theirself in position to win and do so week in and week out. I could show you prolly 10 hands a day where i make wrong decisions.

yep, my game is just too straightforward and people just run me over daily... Only you and AltyAA and MMM and a few others think at higher levels...

You know nothing about my game but LOLz@ assumptive egos and how they work :-)

Heres a little hand from the $55 6max tonight where I pick up on something and go with it, meh I was probably just lucky since I dont think on the same level as you and MMM do...

I now have full backing to play MTTs fulltime this year so as I said above I am just going to play and work on my game and not worry about you Legends... FOR the record MMM's raise/call A9os in that spot was absolutely AWFUL... PERIOD

pokerstars Game #57742146109: Tournament #407010982, $50+$5 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (150/300) - 2011/02/15 22:31:51 ET
Table '407010982 32' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: ShOrTy D 25 (10982 in chips)
Seat 2: sacarey02 (8735 in chips)
Seat 3: SamuraiPlaya (18838 in chips)
Seat 4: droniko (6005 in chips)
Seat 5: Tommy C 06 (4471 in chips)
Seat 6: payupnowx (13009 in chips)
ShOrTy D 25: posts the ante 25
sacarey02: posts the ante 25
SamuraiPlaya: posts the ante 25
droniko: posts the ante 25
Tommy C 06: posts the ante 25
payupnowx: posts the ante 25
sacarey02: posts small blind 150
SamuraiPlaya: posts big blind 300
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SamuraiPlaya [7d 8d]
droniko: folds
Tommy C 06: folds
payupnowx: raises 300 to 600
ShOrTy D 25: folds
sacarey02: folds
SamuraiPlaya: raises 1038 to 1638
payupnowx: raises 1662 to 3300
SamuraiPlaya: raises 15513 to 18813 and is all-in
payupnowx: folds
Uncalled bet (15513) returned to SamuraiPlaya
SamuraiPlaya collected 6900 from pot
SamuraiPlaya: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6900 | Rake 0
Seat 1: ShOrTy D 25 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: sacarey02 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: SamuraiPlaya (big blind) collected (6900)
Seat 4: droniko folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Tommy C 06 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: payupnowx folded before Flop

 

Originally Posted by SamuraiPlaya

You know nothing about my game but LOLz@ assumptive egos and how they work :-)
It's your ego here that has a problem.. You should thank little kraut. He is a sick poker mind and is really giving you good advice here if you read it well without your tilting/frustrated ego involved in there. So i would thank him rather then making sarcastic comments.

I now have full backing to play MTTs fulltime this year so as I said above I am just going to play and work on my game and not worry about you Legends... FOR the record MMM's raise/call A9os in that spot was absolutely AWFUL... PERIOD

Why say this when you have 0 clue? Reread little kraut's post, think and plz don't comment again for your own sake.

......