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## Lock (Merge) Poker and their RNG...

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1. i experience a ton of bad beats as well....but i just learned why they say that 88 has a 94% win % over 77....but take into account that the 6% that 77 has means IT CAN HAPPEN 6 times outta 100....so think how many times 88 has held up for others in the same situation and now u come along and u get the shitty end of the stick....i learned my new favorite word just today. VARIANCE!!!
learn to realize the small percentages dont mean it wont happen....it just means theres a slim CHANCE of it. but is very possible.
thank u that is all
2. 88 should hold against 77 about 82% of the time, not 94%.
3. anyone know were i can find out how this shit works? i started keeping a log of hands and how often they hold becasue i have noticed i lose alot more hands with a hand that is 80 percent fav or higher. i play hu sngs and some tourneys and so far i have 1032 times either someone i am at a table with or me is in a hand as a huge fav and loses. 476 times the 80 percent fav or better loses, i wish i have kept track form the beginning casue it seems like it happens so often and i know what ur saying it is a small sample size but i mean over 40 percent of a time a hand that is 15, 7, 6, 5 percent wins is kinda far off. feel free to berate me and mock me just asking for info on this
4. Probably this stuff has been talked about before but I'd like to learn more about how the various online poker rooms use different RNG's and methods of shuffling.

From what I've gathered from a quick google browse of RNG's it looks like different sites use different algorithms and even different shuffling techniques. It's supposed to be almost impossible to make an algorithm and write a code that is truly random? I don't want this to be a bad beat discussion.

Seems that stars uses a shuffle technique t where the deck (cards) stay in it's fixed position through each individual hand and is then shuffled again before the next hand while on the other hand FT (RIP) used a constant shuffle method wherein the timing of ur mouse click determines what cards you will get. Understandably the FT method would in theory make it more difficult for a computer genius to hack in and know what card is coming next.

I'd also like to know how the RNG's of different sites are tested to assure randomness.

Also, I've seen people argue that if RNG's didn't work like they are supposed to then this would show on peoples tracking software and I agree this would probably be the case. But, has anyone ever taken a sample size of maybe 100,000 hands or more then analyzed (filtered) the hands where they have something like 75% or greater of their chip stack in on a hand and see if the turn and the river are truly random in these cases? Yes, it's pretty easy to see on my tracker (poker copilot) that I get pocket AA and pocket 33 at about the same frequency but I'm not talking about the randomness of pocket cards, I more interested in the randomness of the turn and river cards when the hand is possibly pivotal like when most of a persons stack is in the pot. Do the laws of probability hold in these cases?

Since I spend my valuable time and sometimes money on online poker I'd like some kind of assurance that these sites are legit. Just because some unknown licensing company affirms randomness that isn't quite good enough for me at the moment.

I'll be doing more google research later but have to run for now...
5. They are out to get you.

6. it's legit man. Completely random. They have no reason to favor one hand over the other. They just collect rake.
7. I'm almost certain that the major sites use hardware random number solutions. They don't just generate random numbers algorithmically, they pull numbers from truly random sources like radio white noise etc.

##### Originally Posted by Boofer

But, has anyone ever taken a sample size of maybe 100,000 hands or more then analyzed (filtered) the hands where they have something like 75% or greater of their chip stack in on a hand and see if the turn and the river are truly random in these cases?

Yes, people have done this with samples of millions of hands.
8. pretty sure any legit site uses a tank of manatees and 52 submersible balls each with a rank and value. it's a growing trend in high dollar corporate random generation. good example...: http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/103666/idea-balls
9. No you can not sir
10. confirmed rigged.

Didnt FTP RNG constantly shuffle the deck and based on the timing of your clicking would change the outcome of the street?

I think thats why when I started tanking before a decision I started winning. Def confirmed rigged

11.
##### Originally Posted by Steve Murkle

confirmed rigged.

Didnt FTP RNG constantly shuffle the deck and based on the timing of your clicking would change the outcome of the street?

I think thats why when I started tanking before a decision I started winning. Def confirmed rigged

No comment
12.
##### Originally Posted by Steve Murkle

confirmed rigged.

Didnt FTP RNG constantly shuffle the deck and based on the timing of your clicking would change the outcome of the street?

I think thats why when I started tanking before a decision I started winning. Def confirmed rigged

U speak the truth. Thats why I can only win on FTP. I learned how to time the RNG. Good times...

13. Sample size, really? I'm done with online poker until there is a US regulated product with a standardized RNG that includes at least some live hands to weigh in the mix. Merge is rigging hands in so many ways for so many reasons it's silly. Sample size is a joke. They are clearly tagging users for winning and losing sessions. Lots of reasons but primarily IMO to reduce the number of cash outs by moving BRs around. I can show any reasonable thinking, knowledgable player this in four or five hours of play on any given day. Better yet, let you play any of my Merge skins! Why are there big winners? Simple, because there has to be. Why are they picking on me? That ones not so easy. But I'm pretty sure partially because they don't like me! Do I think it's just me? NO! I see them screwing others exactly the same way every session. So I'm a bad player that dosn't really know the game right? Well if that's true then I for one am even more sure they are rigging the games. If I was a beast I'd be happy and keeping my mouth shut I'm sure, so I am no beast. But since BF I've finished first in around 45 tourneys, about a hundred final tables, average 15 % itm on all the skins I play, won in NLHE, Stud, Omaha, HORSE even that silly ass Budagi! I had 5 figure cashes from FTP, many 1st on PS and left UB well in the positive. (negative on both Tilt and PS) I have won 1st place in small tourneys two out of two trips to Tunica and my Vegas cash rate is probably above 75 %. That record is admittedly not that impressive, trust me, it's not a lot of money. But I have grossed around 40k on merge sites. So call me a riggtard, I don't mind, but don't say I don't know poker because you would be wrong. It's rigged, I'm sure of it. Of course I can not prove this because some of you want 100,000 hand samples. That's really silly and I actually think you people know it. Im a fan of Poket Fives and assume that most posters here are honest brokers. But almost everyone here complains every day about cash out problems. You've called it dishonest and have accused them of lying about it at times. I actually believe there many reasons why they would rigg the games but two main ones work for me. These sites/networks basically work like banks. They take in deposits and make money by charging fees for service. A bank also plays the market with your money while they hold it! But we are all sure that Merge and other sites don't do that because they tell us they don't. Regardless of extra cash they can tie up in "other investments" they have to control how much money they have on hand. They don't like a lot of withdrawals. A run on the bank is a bad thing. Main Reason # 1 - Controling the amount and frequency of withdrawals. By moving our bankrolls around from player to player they accomplish this but also, Main Reason # 2 - Make everyone feel they can win!

Anyway, I'm obviously running up big stacks in most of the tourneys aim playing on Merge
14. If you think the people at Merge are rigging the game you should probably go outside and get some fresh air.
15. Not that it matters but that post was actually a miss click! *As you can see it wasn't finished. *I was using an IPad and it's not the first time my fingers have dragged over the post button by mistake. *I didn't even know I posted it till today. *However, I don't trust merge for sht! *Or any other site serving US players right now. *What I am seeing on merge is some kind of action bs deal and my point was you don't need a large sample to see it. *To me and other riggtards it's like they really don't care how obvious it is. But don't you worry, until someone offers US regulated poker with a standardized RNG that every site serving US players has to use, I'll keep swapping dollars with you. Cause that's all we are doing, just ask Bovada, heck they are honest about it now! Since that mis click rant, I've probably won like 600 bucks on Merge, about the same on Bovada. I'm telling you, I've had winning sessions where I felt like it was being rigged for me! Anyway, who wants to build up a 10k plus bankroll you may never see! I'll keep playing the "netdopositor, recreational eco-system" for now. I still have fun with it sometimes.
16. YEah G2thv, I think the people who set you up with the RNG read these forums. They find out who is complaining and then let you win some so you shut up.

I can't believe no one figured it out before you, did you call the news?
17.
##### Originally Posted by silkhandlez

I would bet you that the senator and congress peeps of your state are basically going to tell you to fuck off, but I'm sure you would consider that to be rigged too.(if you lost the bet) Your logic makes me violently ill.. You are suffering from what is known as "selective memory", and in your case it is very severe. You need to learn to put simple concepts together. For example; in online poker you are experiencing way more bad beats then you would live- this is actually 100% true. But what makes it true? You are playing a hella amount of more hands playa. More hands played=more miracle rivers seen. Also, realize the only reason your singling merge out for cheating is because its the only site your playing on. If pokerstars, ub, and ftp were still running you would obviously think one of those were extremely rigged. Sorry to come down on you so hard but get your head out of the gutter. Stop complaining about bad beats and work on your game.

I like how I make this post and then go on probably the biggest down swing of my life on merge.. Def running worse then I ever have in my life. Fuck merge and their god damn rng.

18. Cute reply. Yeah, that's what I was saying! I'm happy for you that you have so much faith in the current status of online poker in the US. I don't! Honestly, I wish you could convince me otherwise. But my guess is your just another net depositing, recreational player they are trying to keep happy. Do a search on Jonas Oldman's comments on how they look at poker over at Bovada and get back to me.
19. If someone 2.5x opens with AK and you shove 40bbs in with AQ... the stats flip on merge... Meaning AQ becomes a 3:1 favorite as opposed to a 3:1 dog as it usually would be. MTT players must learn to embrace these statistical anomolies not whine and cry when they lose with their former BOSS hands.

20.
##### Originally Posted by ApesAreFun

U speak the truth. Thats why I can only win on FTP. I learned how to time the RNG. Good times...

+1 lol

21. I don't understand the people who think online poker is rigged but continue to play. If you think the sites are rigged, go play live.
22. So, yeah, go play live. I just did. Paid for my 4th st8 trip to Vegas. Came back with big change. Got back about 12:30 am cst. See, here is the thing, I could be wrong, but, I'm not sure u play live! Cause, I sat on 3 fts and on my last chopped 1st AGAIN. And when I got heads up, the villain had almost 2 thirds of all chips, asked me to give up, take second dollars. LOL. Flipped her in like 4 hands and she agreed to chop. And I can tell u, she knew her sht!

THEN, today got a little business done and got on line. Merge fkd me two and three tables at a time, same ole sht, and funny thing is, I don't fkn care. And let's be clear, I got chipped up in EVERYgame playing good poker, then, the powers that B said, enuf! Listen, this sht is beyond pretending it's not happening.

Sure I guess there ppl that are just better live. (LOL)

You may be kidding your self, I'm not.

But I agree, go fkn play live!

Hope I c u there! Lol
23. How about the fact that I can't find anybody that can beat 5-10\$ 6-10 man sngs @ anymore than 6% after 500 games & the competition is so weak it makes bodog look tough. Not to start a riggin derail but it's a joke with team Moshman & everybody that I've seen play there. Team Moshman accepted me cuz I made a sharkscope leaderboard for 2011& dropped me n a week cuz I questioned their style & my results from it, now a week later the coach I was workin w (cool guy) is trying to beat it himself to prove a point, & is "coincidentally" running bad also. How can everybody run bad at the same time & nobody show up w good stats. Note the payment processor & bounced checks this month in the timing of it all. I'm about to call preet & give him my bank account info to expedite the process of shitting down those scumbags.
Edited By: bwalz Feb 22nd, 2012 at 04:46 PM
24. Bear with me and read entire peice-
I just read your messege becuase i have been racking my brain about online poker.... I decided to play again these last 4 months and choose Lock, figured it would be safest through all research I mean weeks and weeks of forums and lock seemed to be the best american website out there. i have played Poker for a little over a decade and a half competively. So were talking 16 years, before it was huge, I have seen MILES AND MILES AND MILES of felt. It got me through college I would serve tables and take tip money put it on table triple up and leave. I ahve the best tvs, truck, apartment, I just kicked ass all my life at cards. I put 1000 on Lock, 500 first go, 300 second go, and 200 last.
Now when i say i played 16 years i mean, for a 5 year stretch I played 8hrs aday. My fiance left me becuase I spent more time at the tables than with her. I was making money and loving every second of it. People around the state who played knew me and respected me. My sister was amazing, she at one point was considered best female poker player in state. She was a rock, like her play percentage was maybe 5%... AA, KK, AK, AQ... a Rock. but together we made dough!
So where im going with this is since i have played Lock its been so stressful and crazy. I enter a tournment and I sit my fold percentage is always at least 80% but averages around 85-88% so i play legit, but never, ever get higher than like 8 in a tournment. I took a small 60 1st prize but thats stupid. I play the same online as i do live tournments. the difference is Live tournments I kill, i cash like 75%, top 5 35%... online its Nuts im only in the money like 6% or something. 3 outers hit way to often on me, runner runners happen way to often. its nausiating and down right awful. I playonline to keep me in the house so my spouse doesn't get upset and she knows how gifted i am at cards and we just don't understand how I get dominated online yet dominate live? it doesn't make sense... this situation happens way too often, I'll have 88's, 99's, 10's a guy in position will re-raise me, i call... flops low i got it dominated and I bet, he pushes... i struggle for a bit thinking, does he have over pair, or is he making an AK move. I'm usually right he has AK and just stealing, so Im the favorite and he catches up everytime. its sick... today i sat in a tournment for 2 hours only played 5 hands, my fold ratio was like 92% it was sick how card dead I was. I have enough for 9 BBs left, Im Big Blind now and under the gun pushes all in with only 8 BBs left so i have him covered barely. the large stack at the table Pushes all in, I have AK suited... i sit and think, this is the best hand I seen all tournment i have a chance to triple up plus antes, I have to call with only 8 BBs left now... I call. Early positon had AJoff, and that idiot big stack had A10 off, I felt great considering I had AK suited... flop comes KQJ, I was like WTF... Busted for my last bit of bankroll, it was an 11 dollar tourn- 1 10\$ rebuy 1 10\$addon...
Im just sick to death of this happening man.... What you think?

##### Originally Posted by G2thV

Sample size, really? I'm done with online poker until there is a US regulated product with a standardized RNG that includes at least some live hands to weigh in the mix. Merge is rigging hands in so many ways for so many reasons it's silly. Sample size is a joke. They are clearly tagging users for winning and losing sessions. Lots of reasons but primarily IMO to reduce the number of cash outs by moving BRs around. I can show any reasonable thinking, knowledgable player this in four or five hours of play on any given day. Better yet, let you play any of my Merge skins! Why are there big winners? Simple, because there has to be. Why are they picking on me? That ones not so easy. But I'm pretty sure partially because they don't like me! Do I think it's just me? NO! I see them screwing others exactly the same way every session. So I'm a bad player that dosn't really know the game right? Well if that's true then I for one am even more sure they are rigging the games. If I was a beast I'd be happy and keeping my mouth shut I'm sure, so I am no beast. But since BF I've finished first in around 45 tourneys, about a hundred final tables, average 15 % itm on all the skins I play, won in NLHE, Stud, Omaha, HORSE even that silly ass Budagi! I had 5 figure cashes from FTP, many 1st on PS and left UB well in the positive. (negative on both Tilt and PS) I have won 1st place in small tourneys two out of two trips to Tunica and my Vegas cash rate is probably above 75 %. That record is admittedly not that impressive, trust me, it's not a lot of money. But I have grossed around 40k on merge sites. So call me a riggtard, I don't mind, but don't say I don't know poker because you would be wrong. It's rigged, I'm sure of it. Of course I can not prove this because some of you want 100,000 hand samples. That's really silly and I actually think you people know it. Im a fan of Poket Fives and assume that most posters here are honest brokers. But almost everyone here complains every day about cash out problems. You've called it dishonest and have accused them of lying about it at times. I actually believe there many reasons why they would rigg the games but two main ones work for me. These sites/networks basically work like banks. They take in deposits and make money by charging fees for service. A bank also plays the market with your money while they hold it! But we are all sure that Merge and other sites don't do that because they tell us they don't. Regardless of extra cash they can tie up in "other investments" they have to control how much money they have on hand. They don't like a lot of withdrawals. A run on the bank is a bad thing. Main Reason # 1 - Controling the amount and frequency of withdrawals. By moving our bankrolls around from player to player they accomplish this but also, Main Reason # 2 - Make everyone feel they can win!

Anyway, I'm obviously running up big stacks in most of the tourneys aim playing on Merge

25. I'm thinking that if you are from Canada, you shouldn't be playing on Lock or any site that offers services to the US if you were paying even a little bit of attention to what happened last year in April.

However, what you are describing could easily be described on other sites as well.
26. I feel that my original complaint/argument was correct after reading several threads about ppl's displeasure with severe run bad and bad beats galore on merge. Thanks too all.
Thread Starter
27. You should check out the AA & KK threads, most of that is on pokerstars. I have no idea about the RNG on Merge, but know Stars is tested and plenty of people take bad beats there as well. On a side note though, it appears the Merge RNG has only been tested by the KGC which also was the commission that was verifying UB/AP's RNGs when the superuser scandal, so not saying anything is impossible when they are involved.

http://www.mergegaming.com/fairness-security.html
28. Sorry, but that eCogra certification means nothing to me. I don't know eCogra or anything even remotely about them or if they are legit or not. Who is eCogra and who do they work for? I feel its time WE as players and a community start asking some serious questions that need to be answered, from everything about how a company is run, how player funds are handled, to who is certifing the the sites, and who the certifiers are. The more WE know the better and any site that isn't completely transparent should be ostracized from the poker world.
Edited By: HOUNDofHELL Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:57 PM
Thread Starter
29. I was agreeing with you that them being involved with the KGC isn't a great thing. Pokerstars is verified by Cigital who I would trust alot more. I don't think there is anything wrong with the RNG at Merge, but they should try to get the best of the best involved with both their licensing and RNG testing to prove it. http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/rng/
30.
##### Originally Posted by wackyJaxon

I was agreeing with you that them being involved with the KGC isn't a great thing. Pokerstars is verified by Cigital who I would trust alot more. I don't think there is anything wrong with the RNG at Merge, but they should try to get the best of the best involved with both their licensing and RNG testing to prove it. http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/rng/

precisely. I wasn't disagreeing with you, just expanding on the conversation. Thats why PS is the best in the biz.
Thread Starter
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