Originally Posted by nowapowa

"[The Native Americans] didn't have any rights to the land and there was no reason for anyone to grant them rights which they had not conceived and were not using.... What was it they were fighting for, if they opposed white men on this continent? For their wish to continue a primitive existence, their "right" to keep part of the earth untouched, unused and not even as property, just keep everybody out so that you will live practically like an animal, or maybe a few caves above it. Any white person who brought the element of civilization had the right to take over this continent."

"Q and A session following her Address To The Graduating Class Of The United States Military Academy at West Point, New York, March 6, 1974"

individual liberty say wat?

I heard Thomas Jefferson owned slaves and Robert Byrd belonged to the KKK.

 

Originally Posted by Lenny

Terrible argument. Do better.

Terrible argument? So you believe we should throw out the Constitution, Declaration of Independence along with Atlas Shrugged? Fine, how about this. The real quote:

 

Now, I don't care to discuss the alleged complaints American Indians have against this country. I believe, with good reason, the most unsympathetic Hollywood portrayal of Indians and what they did to the white man. They had no right to a country merely because they were born here and then acted like savages. The white man did not conquer this country. And you're a racist if you object, because it means you believe that certain men are entitled to something because of their race. You believe that if someone is born in a magnificent country and doesn't know what to do with it, he still has a property right to it. He does not. Since the Indians did not have the concept of property or property rights--they didn't have a settled society, they had predominantly nomadic tribal "cultures"--they didn't have rights to the land, and there was no reason for anyone to grant them rights that they had not conceived of and were not using. It's wrong to attack a country that respects (or even tries to respect) individual rights. If you do, you're an aggressor and are morally wrong. But if a "country" does not protect rights--if a group of tribesmen are the slaves of their tribal chief--why should you respect the "rights" that they don't have or respect? The same is true for a dictatorship. The citizens in it have individual rights, but the country has no rights and so anyone has the right to invade it, because rights are not recognized in that country; and no individual or country can have its cake and eat it too--that is, you can't claim one should respect the "rights" of Indians, when they had no concept of rights and no respect for rights. But let's suppose they were all beautifully innocent savages--which they certainly were not. What were they fighting for, in opposing the white man on this continent? For their wish to continue a primitive existnece; for their "right" to keep part of the earth untouched--to keep everybody out so they could live like animals or cavemen. Any European who brought with him an element of civilization had the right to take over this continent, and it's great that some of them did. The racist Indians today--those who condemn America--do not respect individual rights.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Ayn_Rand

Yes, individual liberty.

I am glad (thankful, even) that western civilization supplanted the tribalistic cultures that previously inhabited America. Schools, hospitals, skyscrapers, computers, spacecraft. We can literally fucking fly and buy stuff over the internet. It's just better. Some of the means employed to accomplish this were atrocious, however.

 

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Terrible argument? So you believe we should throw out the Constitution, Declaration of Independence along with Atlas Shrugged? Fine, how about this. The real quote:



http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Ayn_Rand

Yes, individual liberty.

Actually I think you are wrong. I just read the quote in Derick Jensen's "End Game" and in the notes it reads: "192. Rand. For what it's worth, she absolutely emphasizes the word white in the last sentence."

And in the bibliography: "Rand, Ayn. Talk given at the United States Military Academy at West Point, NY, March 6, 1974. Nita Crabb, who has been of invaluable assistance in tracking down sources, was able to obtain a CD of this talk with the help of some extraordinary librarians at West Point. The sound quality is poor, but where you can hear what she says, it really is quite appalling."

Wouldn't it make more sense that a more flushed out and less offensive version appear in print?

Dyz, I feel like sometimes you just put on the blinders for expediency. Because the natives had a different system of morality, trade and spirituality than the colonists meant that they didn't have rights to live how they wanted to? Have you read Marcel Mauss' "The Gift"?

Emcee, is it gonna be just better when we run out of topsoil?

 

Originally Posted by nowapowa

Actually I think you are wrong. I just read the quote in Derick Jensen's "End Game" and in the notes it reads: "192. Rand. For what it's worth, she absolutely emphasizes the word white in the last sentence."

And in the bibliography: "Rand, Ayn. Talk given at the United States Military Academy at West Point, NY, March 6, 1974. Nita Crabb, who has been of invaluable assistance in tracking down sources, was able to obtain a CD of this talk with the help of some extraordinary librarians at West Point. The sound quality is poor, but where you can hear what she says, it really is quite appalling."

Wouldn't it make more sense that a more flushed out and less offensive version appear in print?

Dyz, I feel like sometimes you just put on the blinders for expediency. Because the natives had a different system of morality, trade and spirituality than the colonists meant that they didn't have rights to live how they wanted to? Have you read Marcel Mauss' "The Gift"?

Emcee, is it gonna be just better when we run out of topsoil?

I said no such thing.

I just watched a Dyzalot YouTube video. It was pretty funny. That's all I have to add

 

Originally Posted by TMLMS13

We will force you to mine for gold 1000 miles away from where you lived then take your gold back to Europe where we get rich. If you die mining the gold that is your fault.

But in exchange we will teach you about Jesus and how he died for your sins. That's a fair trade and if you don't like it we will kill you.

- The story of Colonization in the Americas

come on bro, we gave them blankets too

 

Originally Posted by TUGreenWave

come on bro, we gave them blankets too

small pox tho

 

Originally Posted by Lenny

small pox tho

congrats Lenny, you really caught that one

 

Originally Posted by gamma21

Maybe not fair, but not too shabby either. One of my buddies is a member of the San Manuel tribe and he gets anywhere from $100-$150k a month depending on how business is at the casino. Not a bad deal for being able to sit back and collect a paycheck.

goddam... and to think my great-great grandparents refused to sign up for the tribal rolls because they didn't trust the white man... little did they know how much they would be costing me right now.

 

Originally Posted by gamma21

Maybe not fair, but not too shabby either. One of my buddies is a member of the San Manuel tribe and he gets anywhere from $100-$150k a month depending on how business is at the casino. Not a bad deal for being able to sit back and collect a paycheck.

Really!! My sisters grandmother is part of that tribe and she don't get shit

I posted a few weeks ago about a recording studio i was in on a reserve. Rated as one of the top new studios in the world with a golf course behind it and a guest compound across the street with custom tour buses and cadillac escalades for escorting the guests around. We didn't get to see the exotic car collection but i was told they have a bentley and several other nice toys. Not too shabby.

They do give a lot back to the community but there is no doubt that the wealth is highly concentrated among the top few like any other major corporation. Google grand river enterprises or jukasa studios.

 

Originally Posted by Willywoo

wtf is this thread even about?

just a normal OT thread - started here ..... and went there ... probably go somewhere else and then return to ayn rand (maybe).

 

Originally Posted by saxman

just a normal OT thread - started here ..... and went there ... probably go somewhere else and then return to ayn rand (maybe).

I thought maybe we were going to figure out how to make it right. At least you Canadians were nicer to your indigenous people when you took their land.