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there would be a huge brain-drain out of the shitty 49.
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Posts: 1,482
Joined: Oct 07Oct 9th, 2012 (10/9/2012 11:24pm) in reply to EyeKnows
i don't know the answer, but what is the total amount of taxes paid by california (including federal) compared to the benefits received (including federal)?
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Posts: 1,507
Joined: May 07Oct 9th, 2012 (10/9/2012 11:30pm) in reply to qjuice14
Well the constitution saysOriginally Posted by mathclub
how has the NFL touchdown celebration rule not been struck down as unconstitutional?
What does it have to say about rules in the NFL?The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several
State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and
of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution;
but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public
Trust under the United States. -
just looked on a site that claims to list the dumbest laws in the US. did not verify to see if accurate:
In Vermont it is illegal to kill a hedgehog that you have as a pet with a green dagger.
In Florida it is illegal to fart in a public place after 6pm on Thursdays.
In Louisiana it is illegal for a woman to drive a car unless her husband is waving a flag in front of it. -
Leet8s
usausausausausa
Posts: 9,481
Joined: Aug 06Oct 9th, 2012 (10/9/2012 11:37pm) in reply to Dyzalot
Again, you're clueless on economics. The difference between Greece, Spain and Portugal, and that of California, and to extension the U.S., is that we have a 14T yearly economy and maybe a zillion dollars worth of assets. Ever wonder why U.S. Treasury yields aren't those of Greece and Spain and Portugal? If economics were as simple as a debt/gdp ratio then we'd have seen Japan get crushed and go bankrupt but there is a reason why that country too has very low yields.Originally Posted by Dyzalot
It would also be asking for a bailout like Greece, Spain and Portugal.
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Posts: 42,234
Joined: Sep 07Oct 9th, 2012 (10/9/2012 11:43pm) in reply to Leet8s
lol. you can't. 1st amendment only applied to the feds not the states until the 14th amendment. ps no way I stole that from the comments part of some site I found discussing the issue, fwiwOriginally Posted by saxman
seriously??? how the fuck can you prevent someone from holding office b/c they are an atheist?
headexplode.gif
willy, it would be wrong to lump all muslims in with those who are the tiny minority that actually are batshit. Anyone blaming all muslims, or all of islam, for the actions a few is silly.Originally Posted by Willywoo
Glad I didn't make a Muslim thread like this.
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Posts: 7,081
Joined: Jan 07Oct 9th, 2012 (10/9/2012 11:57pm) in reply to cminer25
The NFL has different rules for touchdown celebrations ie you can touch the ground with your knee if it's a religious thing, but can't otherwise. As an employer I don't believe they are able to make these kinds of rules where a religious act can be permitted but a similar act that is non-religious is not ok.Originally Posted by cminer25
Well the constitution says
What does it have to say about rules in the NFL?
TBH not actually sure of what specifc law it is, but I just kind of assumed all of these kinds of laws are either in the constitution or based on the constitution. -
Posts: 7,081
Joined: Jan 07Oct 9th, 2012 (10/9/2012 11:59pm) in reply to mathclub
I went it looked it up.Originally Posted by mathclub
The NFL has different rules for touchdown celebrations ie you can touch the ground with your knee if it's a religious thing, but can't otherwise. As an employer I don't believe they are able to make these kinds of rules where a religious act can be permitted but a similar act that is non-religious is not ok.
TBH not actually sure of what specifc law it is, but I just kind of assumed all of these kinds of laws are either in the constitution or based on the constitution.
Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of l964 ("Title VII") prohibits employers, except religious organizations [SIZE=1]3[/SIZE] [SIZE=1]4[/SIZE] [SIZE=1]5[/SIZE], from discriminating against individuals because of their religion in hiring, firing, and other terms and conditions of employment. Title VII also requires employers to reasonably accommodate the religious practices of an employee or prospective employee, unless to do so would create an undue hardship upon the employer. This means that:- Employers may not treat employees more or less favorably because of their religion.
- Employees cannot be required to participate"or to refrain from participating"in a religious activity as a condition of employment.
- Employers must reasonably accommodate employees' sincerely held religious practices unless doing so would impose an undue hardship on the employer.
- Employers must take steps to prevent religious harassment of their employees.
- Employers may not retaliate against employees for asserting rights under Title VII.
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Posts: 1,507
Joined: May 07Oct 10th, 2012 (10/10/2012 12:08am) in reply to mathclub
1. The NFL is a private organization and isn't held to the same standards as a state gov.
2. In your example the NFL is making an exemption to their rules to allow for religious expression, whereas a state not allowing an atheist to hold public office is making a rule that restricts freedom of religion (or lack thereof). See the difference? -
Posts: 7,081
Joined: Jan 07Oct 10th, 2012 (10/10/2012 12:31am) in reply to cminer25
1 - not relevant. they are an employer, and as such are subject to numerous employment laws. The law I quoted was not about public institutions, it's for any employer, private or publicOriginally Posted by cminer25
1. The NFL is a private organization and isn't held to the same standards as a state gov.
2. In your example the NFL is making an exemption to their rules to allow for religious expression, whereas a state not allowing an atheist to hold public office is making a rule that restricts freedom of religion (or lack thereof). See the difference?
2 - I don't have an issue with an exception to a rule to allow for religious expression. I have an issue whereby that religious expression allows the religous person to do something that the other people are not, because of this rule. Either everyone is allowed to do it or no one is allowed to do it.
"Employers may not treat employees more or less favourably because of their religion". -
Posts: 7,081
Joined: Jan 07Oct 10th, 2012 (10/10/2012 12:40am) in reply to mathclub
just to clarify, the issue with the laws against atheists holding public office are worse, but that doesn't make my point any less true.
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Lord Supremo
actually a tuvalu lord (sigh)
Posts: 19,848
Joined: Mar 07Oct 10th, 2012 (10/10/2012 12:43am) in reply to mathclub
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Posts: 5,194
Joined: Dec 06Oct 10th, 2012 (10/10/2012 12:53am) in reply to mathclub
Edited By: snaggs Oct 10th, 2012 at 12:56 AMMy entire problem with even the New Testament, from a Christian perspective is that, even in the New Testament, other than the books where it is directly attributing lessons and thoughts to Jesus himself, it's a couple dudes' (Peter, and Saul/Paul mainly) opinions. Take most of the "letters" books. Christians read these as fact, when in reality they are no more fact than whatever the pope or your bishop, or even your priest or minister says. While some of it is just rehashing of Jesus's teachings, much of it is the writer's opinions. I can form my own opinions, thanks.Originally Posted by mathclub
interesting how so many christians seem eager to distance themselves from the old testament and prefer the new testament instead.
interesting how these same christians are actually big on several parts of the old testament. Things like god created everything, adam and eve, the story of noah and even the 10 commandments are all found in the old testament. "thou shall not kill", cough cough. So it's not actually the old testament they are rejecting. Just the parts of it they don't like.
not to mention how the new testament actually isn't all that much better than the old testament. Here's a few dozen examples of how horrible the new testament is too http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt_list.html
Plus, if you even believed in god, he is unchanging and perfect, so there is no way to undo all of the crap in the old testament. And Jesus certainly doesn't undo it all, in fact he quite clearly says he's not here to undo anything that's gone before.
If you are christian then there is no way to logically deny everything that happened in the old testament.
However, if you are a christian to start with then things like logic, reason and evidence obviously aren't important to you in regards to your beliefs so I doubt you care.
I like most of what Jesus had to say (or what was ascribed to him, but that's a whole other kettle of fish) and generally try and live my life by those tenets. On judgement calls, I trust mine as much as I do anyone else's from the Bible. -
Posts: 20,325
Joined: May 05Oct 10th, 2012 (10/10/2012 12:55am) in reply to Leet8s
Originally Posted by Leet8s
Again, you're clueless on economics. The difference between Greece, Spain and Portugal, and that of California, and to extension the U.S., is that we have a 14T yearly economy and maybe a zillion dollars worth of assets. Ever wonder why U.S. Treasury yields aren't those of Greece and Spain and Portugal? If economics were as simple as a debt/gdp ratio then we'd have seen Japan get crushed and go bankrupt but there is a reason why that country too has very low yields.
The governor requested a federal bailout in 2010.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_417318.html
California cities are declaring bankruptcy.
http://reason.com/reasontv/2012/08/0...-went-bankrupt -
Lord Supremo
actually a tuvalu lord (sigh)
Posts: 19,848
Joined: Mar 07Oct 10th, 2012 (10/10/2012 1:02am) in reply to Dyzalot
California sends 314 billion dollars to the federal government in taxes and only gets back 260 billion in federal spending. I wonder if that extra 54 billion might help some of those cities declaring bankruptcy.
Nah, probably not. -
Not only that, but the earliest gospel was written no sooner than 30years after Jesus' death and some possibly as much as 90years. This makes it increasingly more difficult to rationalize these accounts as eye-witness.
Originally Posted by snaggs
My entire problem with even the New Testament, from a Christian perspective is that, even in the New Testament, other than the books where it is directly attributing lessons and thoughts to Jesus himself, it's a couple dudes' (Peter, and Saul/Paul mainly) opinions. Take most of the "letters" books. Christians read these as fact, when in reality they are no more fact than whatever the pope or your bishop, or even your priest or minister says. While some of it is just rehashing of Jesus's teachings, much of it is the writer's opinions. I can form my own opinions, thanks.
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Posts: 7,081
Joined: Jan 07Oct 10th, 2012 (10/10/2012 1:18am) in reply to snaggs
But there are many christians who hold the bible up as THE source of morality, despite the fact that morally it is a pretty disgusting book. And then they turn around and just ignore the bits they don't like. And the few who don't actually ignore the parts they don't like are the guys from Westboro Baptish etc, the real extremeists. At least they are actually being honest and consistent.Originally Posted by snaggs
My entire problem with even the New Testament, from a Christian perspective is that, even in the New Testament, other than the books where it is directly attributing lessons and thoughts to Jesus himself, it's a couple dudes' (Peter, and Saul/Paul mainly) opinions. Take most of the "letters" books. Christians read these as fact, when in reality they are no more fact than whatever the pope or your bishop, or even your priest or minister says. While some of it is just rehashing of Jesus's teachings, much of it is the writer's opinions. I can form my own opinions, thanks.
I like most of what Jesus had to say (or what was ascribed to him, but that's a whole other kettle of fish) and generally try and live my life by those tenets. On judgement calls, I trust mine as much as I do anyone else's from the Bible.
And they say things like, if the bible is true, how dare any of you ignore gods written word and pick and choose the bits you want to follow? Do you think you know more than god?
And to be honest it's hard to argue with that. Either the bible is true, and then you should follow it word for word. But if you're not following it word for word, then obviously you don't really believe the basic tenents on christianity so why even call yourself a christian. If it's not true, and you get to just pick and choose which wors from the creator of the universe you want to believe, why even pretend you believe it at all? because obviously you don't really believe it, or you'd be going the whole hog -
It's not about "distancing" oneself, it's about interpreting the Old Testament from its proper historical context. Contrary to popular belief among some Christians, and a lot of non-Christians, the entire Bible is not meant to be taken literally, and the entire thing is not one giant book about how to live and what's acceptable/unacceptable. If you take it that way, then you're not clearly understanding its purpose and meaning. I don't know why I continue to try to make this point, though, because nobody listens anyway.
Originally Posted by mathclub
interesting how so many christians seem eager to distance themselves from the old testament and prefer the new testament instead.
interesting how these same christians are actually big on several parts of the old testament. Things like god created everything, adam and eve, the story of noah and even the 10 commandments are all found in the old testament. "thou shall not kill", cough cough. So it's not actually the old testament they are rejecting. Just the parts of it they don't like. -
Posts: 7,081
Joined: Jan 07Oct 10th, 2012 (10/10/2012 1:36am) in reply to ECUgirl
ok, well i'm glad you acknowledge that's not how many people see it, because unfortunately a lot of people see it exactly like that. And they would just say that you clearly aren't understanding it's purpose and meaning.Originally Posted by ECUgirl
It's not about "distancing" oneself, it's about interpreting the Old Testament from its proper historical context. Contrary to popular belief among some Christians, and a lot of non-Christians, the entire Bible is not meant to be taken literally, and the entire thing is not one giant book about how to live and what's acceptable/unacceptable. If you take it that way, then you're not clearly understanding its purpose and meaning. I don't know why I continue to try to make this point, though, because nobody listens anyway.
but again, you're just picking and choosing the parts you like, so see my post above re that.
where do you think morality comes from? -
Posts: 5,194
Joined: Dec 06Oct 10th, 2012 (10/10/2012 1:36am) in reply to ECUgirl
No, ECU it's just that the ones who listen already agree. Not a lot of people make "I agree" posts. Lots of people make "I disagree" posts.Originally Posted by ECUgirl
It's not about "distancing" oneself, it's about interpreting the Old Testament from its proper historical context. Contrary to popular belief among some Christians, and a lot of non-Christians, the entire Bible is not meant to be taken literally, and the entire thing is not one giant book about how to live and what's acceptable/unacceptable. If you take it that way, then you're not clearly understanding its purpose and meaning. I don't know why I continue to try to make this point, though, because nobody listens anyway.
I had a religion professor in college who is one of the translators of the Dead Sea Scrolls. She's a very devout woman, yet in an Old Testament class I had with her, she talked about the archeological contradictions to many of the stories in the Old Testament, not to mention we studied the different editors of the Pentateuch etc... all things which could certainly shake the faith of a literal bible wonk. She had no problem with it though as she was more interested in the POINT behind the stories.
Super interesting woman.
(she did, however, run off with a married man, so I think she missed a point or two somewhere lol) -
Posts: 20,325
Joined: May 05Oct 10th, 2012 (10/10/2012 1:37am) in reply to Lord Supremo
Originally Posted by Lord Supremo
California sends 314 billion dollars to the federal government in taxes and only gets back 260 billion in federal spending. I wonder if that extra 54 billion might help some of those cities declaring bankruptcy.
Nah, probably not.
I agree. People should be able to keep more of their own money. -
Posts: 20,325
Joined: May 05Oct 10th, 2012 (10/10/2012 1:45am) in reply to mathclub
Edited By: Dyzalot Oct 10th, 2012 at 01:49 AMOriginally Posted by mathclub
Either the bible is true, and then you should follow it word for word.
Why? How does one follow "soandso beget soandso who beget soandso..." "word for word"? What do you mean when you say that someone should follow a history book word for word just because they believe it is a true account of history? Perhaps you are confusing the Bible with the Talmud? -
Edited By: ECUgirl Oct 10th, 2012 at 01:50 AMNo. We had this conversation a few weeks ago on here, but I'll say it again. Not everything in the Bible is meant to be a command/mandate. Some of it is just relaying information and historical events. In order to interpret a passage accurately, you have to take it in context. You need to know who is speaking, who they are speaking to, the purpose of what they're saying, etc... All that matters!! Some things in the Bible are meant to be taken figuratively. It seems that many of you have a hard time grasping this and think the Bible is one big book of "do this, don't do that", but it's truly not. Even as a Christian, I'm still learning new things about the Bible all the time.Originally Posted by mathclub
And to be honest it's hard to argue with that. Either the bible is true, and then you should follow it word for word. But if you're not following it word for word, then obviously you don't really believe the basic tenents on christianity so why even call yourself a christian. If it's not true, and you get to just pick and choose which wors from the creator of the universe you want to believe, why even pretend you believe it at all? because obviously you don't really believe it, or you'd be going the whole hog
Christians believe that the Bible is "God-breathed" and that the authors of the various books were inspired by God to write what they wrote. The whole thing is considered the Word of God to a Christian (this does NOT mean that it's to be interpreted literally or that it's a big book of rules).Originally Posted by snaggs
but the words aren't from the creator, and the new testaments don't even pretend to be. Pretty hard for an epistle from Paul or the like to be the word of god.
Oh and I don't call myself a Christian btw. -
Posts: 1,507
Joined: May 07Oct 10th, 2012 (10/10/2012 1:51am) in reply to Lord Supremo
i'm not sure why I'm arguing about federal law with you (still don't agree with your interpretation btw) when my original point was that a law prohibiting an atheist from holding public office is unconstitutional. Just because something violates a federal law does not necessarily mean it is unconstitutional.Originally Posted by mathclub
just to clarify, the issue with the laws against atheists holding public office are worse, but that doesn't make my point any less true.
I've already showed where these state laws violate the constitution. Can you show me where the NFL rule violates the constitution?
Should have just gone with something like this. What a waste of time lol. -
Posts: 1,266
Joined: Jul 07Oct 10th, 2012 (10/10/2012 2:08am) in reply to ECUgirl
Edited By: Edub Oct 10th, 2012 at 02:12 AMWhy isn't the entire Bible meant to be taken literally? How are we supposed to judge which parts to take a literal stance on? If the bible isn't meant to be taken literally as a whole why should I take any part of it seriously?Originally Posted by ECUgirl
It's not about "distancing" oneself, it's about interpreting the Old Testament from its proper historical context. Contrary to popular belief among some Christians, and a lot of non-Christians, the entire Bible is not meant to be taken literally, and the entire thing is not one giant book about how to live and what's acceptable/unacceptable. If you take it that way, then you're not clearly understanding its purpose and meaning. I don't know why I continue to try to make this point, though, because nobody listens anyway.
“Above all you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” 2 Peter 1:20-21. (New International Version)
If the authors were inspired by a supernatural holy spirit, god, why are you supposed to just ignore some of what was written? -
Leet8s
usausausausausa
Posts: 9,481
Joined: Aug 06Oct 10th, 2012 (10/10/2012 2:08am) in reply to Edub
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Edited By: VanceAce Oct 10th, 2012 at 02:48 AMWhere do you think morality comes from? I doubt your answer will be much more logical than any Christians'.Originally Posted by mathclub
ok, well i'm glad you acknowledge that's not how many people see it, because unfortunately a lot of people see it exactly like that. And they would just say that you clearly aren't understanding it's purpose and meaning.
but again, you're just picking and choosing the parts you like, so see my post above re that.
where do you think morality comes from? -
Posts: 11,910
Joined: Jan 06Oct 10th, 2012 (10/10/2012 3:04am) in reply to qjuice14
Good law.Originally Posted by qjuice14
just looked on a site that claims to list the dumbest laws in the US. did not verify to see if accurate:
In Louisiana it is illegal for a woman to drive a car unless her husband is waving a flag in front of it.
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