Originally Posted by Ozzie

i didnt say you were a member of the nazi party or espoused hitlers ideals... i said that your subservience to power would make you a model citizen in a totalitarian dictatorship.

and that you incapable of independent thought.

all 100% true and seemingly indisputable.

So some folks in OT that believe: Less than 1 minute of discomfort > another major terrorist attack? They aren't mutilating prisoners, just causing stress & discomfort to our enemies to gain valuable Intel, imo. Doing so doesn't make the US evil or bad in any way whatsoever, it makes us practical & "torturing" in this humane way ought to boost our standing in the eyes of the world.
Some of ya'll come off sounding way to close to apologist for the terrorist sometimes. Let's not forget how they treat even western noncombatants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Berg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Pearl
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Sun-il
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Armstrong
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Hensley
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Bigley
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shosei_Koda
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Hassan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seif_Adnan_Kanaan <-Not western, just helped the US troops.

My apologies if my sympathy meter for teh terrorists just doesn't peg on the highest outrage, when all we're doing is pouring water on them.

So we are now justifying the actions of the US govt by comparing them to radical islamic fundamentalists...

oh so sorry. I must have misread your pathetic "'torture' caught obl!" post. all that stuff about some criminal is interesting, but not even slightly related to the issue

gg reading skills.

Yeah, this is bullshit.

Who says torture works? Why, the torturer of course! Very believable. Torture is used to get false confessions. Because when you start to torture people, they will admit to anything you want them to.

Torture is not useful for getting actionable intelligence. The victim will say everything and anything he can think of just to get the torture to stop. People who know absolutely nothing will make up things just to get it to stop. So, after you get the information, you have to do just as much work to confirm anything you hear.

Torture is very useful if you are running a police state and you want plausible information to feed to your citizens to mollify them.

Americans tortured by the Vietnamese confessed to horrible crimes and made anti-American propaganda statements.

 

Originally Posted by norcaljeff

which ends? which means? I have no problem with us waterboarding known terrorists, if that's what you mean

No, it's not what I mean.

I'm sure most people (myself included) have no problem waterboarding known terrorists. Is this different than using the waterboarding approach indiscriminately against our "enemies"? I believe it is.

I don't trust any government (the US govt included) to make determinations about who should be tortured and who shouldn't. I have witnessed tremendous failures by our government repeatedly in making similar determinations in the past and have a lack of trust that clearly you don't possess.

If you think that our government sanctioning this practice will mean that only known terrorists will be "tortured", that's your opinion and that's fine. I disagree. I feel that once this is an accepted practice, that those in the field will have no problem using it on anyone they determine to be an "enemy". This leads to the "torture" of innocents on the behalf of the supposedly righteous United States. While you may approve I do not.

I'm sure many people think that the ends do justify the means and that if a innocent Iraqis or Afghans have to suffer or die in order to protect the lives of Americans then so be it. As a science-fearing agnostic I don't feel that American life is more worthy of being protected than that of others.

you're right, and I usually refrain from wasting my breath in threads like this one, but I thought I'd say my piece just once. I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind and I assure you that I'll be back to lurking shortly

Wow, if you really believe the US govt is as corrupt & evil as you just eluded too, why remain a citizen?

Lets all feel sooooo sorry for the discomfort some POS terrorist had when some water was dumped on their head. Man the younger generation in the country is weak. All we need to do is give the terrorist a hug. I am sure that will get us the information we need. If the hug doesn't work and they kill a bunch of americans again with another attack, at least we can say we kept are morals. Terrorist rights> American lives. LOL bunch of pussies on this site.

Hifi,
Foreign terrorists should not be afforded the protections of the US Constitution, the Supreme Court ruling is an abomination, imo. How can they be given the protections of our Constitution, in what way are they American citizens? Is the US Constitution now a binding legal document for the entire world?

Well, I sure hope I never said the US govt is evil cuz I don't necessarily think so. However, I do feel that the institution of govt intself is inherently evil and will ultimately corrupt itself. Maybe if you guys tried reading the Constitution and other works by those who wrote the Constitution, you would learn about why you don't blindly trust government.

I think this is the greatest country in the world and while I would like to live abroad for a short time during my life, America will always be my home. Take your love it or leave it crap and shove it. I study government, work for the US government, and have a higher understanding of US history and political theory than you ever will.

I'm talking about the recent decision (June 12th) of the Supreme Court to extend Habeas rights to the GITMO detainees, but I think you knew that. They grossly overstepped their bounds & contradicted a law passed by congress (the Military Commissions Act), imo. They reached out from the bench, swept away laws passed by congress, & extended protections of the US Constitution to enemy combatants. How is that not an abomination of justice?

*Edit: The military follows the UCMJ, they don't just make shit up. The are held accountable to higher authority & it also spells out how enemy combatants are to held accountable. At least they did, before SCOTUS decided everybody's essentially an American now & has protections under the Constitution.

so you're saying because saddam did it, we can too?

 

Originally Posted by dodgingjets

I'm talking about the recent decision (June 12th) of the Supreme Court to extend Habeas rights to the GITMO detainees, but I think you knew that. They grossly overstepped their bounds & contradicted a law passed by congress (the Military Commissions Act), imo. They reached out from the bench, swept away laws passed by congress, & extended protections of the US Constitution to enemy combatants.

really, if one of your points against the court is to say they "contradicted a law passed by congress," you really have no idea the way checks and balances amongst the three branches of government are supposed to be.

to quote the constitution,
"1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

it does not say "any citizen," but rather "any person." that includes enemy combatants.

of course, if you want to say that the federal government isn't a "State," refer to the 5th amendment, which states:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;


not that the government really cares about the constitution anymore anyway