Originally Posted by skisteve

i know i am an economics bankruptcy noob, but just thinking out loud here since no one answered me the last time i mentioned it......

why dont we:

1. let the govt have them file early for bk while they still have cash to recover with, 2. bailout the pension plan and turn it over to a 401k management company to run like most major companies do anyhow.

3. let all the pain be "spread" over all the suppliers for ONE MONTH of bills that wont be paid and make sure none of them go out of business as a result of the write off, 4. get back to work with the same suppliers and assure them they are the current supplier for a few years as a thank you.

***at a minimum, run the numbers if they would be able to stand alone without further assistance under this plan with no debt over them.

IF they are not able to be very profitable debt free then there is no point saving them anyhow! i just think in the long run saving the pension plan is my #1 priority as those people worked their asses off and will lose EVERYTHING if they lose the pension and #2 is letting them be able to operate again in a positive cash flow structure under a NEW management -i want everyone GONE, GTFO, dont ever come back.

If they EVER decide "hey lets make all the cool cars from the 1960s and 70s again that have 10mpg" in a year where any fucking noob can see they need completely the OPPOSITE of that and was a SIGN to me they were making one last FUCK YOU to the government before gas mileage laws go into place and before they run out of money. im sure it cost PLENTY to "retool" the factories for THAT bs but now they want the government to PAY for the multi billion dollar retoolings it would take to make more efficient cars? FUCKING BULLSHIT is what that is. its kind of like the AIG executives going to a posh resort and getting massages on out dollars.

In the end, band aids will NOT fix this. i believe one year from now we will be right back here again if its just a bailout. we are already blowing $25 billion on it we will NEVER see again, why not make it morrrrre! no, lets not. just let them file early with capital and start over so people keep the majority of the jobs. once they are profitable witin a matter of a short time the majority of people laid of will be rehired.

i believe the 32-or 35mpg law that BUSH passed will be in affect 2010 so either way more efficient cars are coming, its their own fault they didnt see a pattern set by honda and toyota. only a fucking retard could think american gas guzzlers that are UGLY would win out over cheap to run cool looking futuristic cars as oil obv gets more expensive as it starts to disappear. "hey lets build some 10mpg cars!"

this actually makes me angrier than the whole banking crisis in general because its been going on for over a decade in my head as OBV COMING plus there is no way we get a dime of it back UNLESS they let them bk NOW so they dont need more money and we get a ton of preferred shares that generate interest and sell them off in a year or two when they are debt free and worth two or three times as much in a short period of time. i HATE FUCKING SOCIALISM TOOLS but this holding them to improvement for a TIMELINE of a year or two then having it in writing they are selling the shares is a workable thing although not pretty. if they just had nothing in place that said they were stying forever i would be totally against it and say fuck it. take the pension and let them die, fuck it, but i have more hope than that.

the gas milage laws alone will already assure us they cant go back to those horrible cars so that assures me they wont fuck up again, thanks bush. he did smething great, i hope he gets credit for that.

summary: save the pension plans regardless. let them bk early. everything else see above.

Steve, agree with most of this, but you can't forget it's a publicly traded company. As soon as they announce bankruptcy their stock price/market cap is DONE and they sink immediately until someone buys them up for peanuts.

I think the idea of the bailout is to try to keep them afloat and inject CONFIDENCE into investors into the company more than actual cash. The problem with this is the massive bipolar panic that is going on. There's NO WAY it would be able to sustain any kind of share price rally, period.

The market is incredibly bearish right now so any attempts to kneejerk our way into a rally are stupid and useless. Anyone who is heavily invested is obvious gonna dump something fundamentally unsound and we'll just return back to where we were. At this point, things HAVE to fail as painful as it may seem.

good points thanks! :) more questions for ya then!

what happens when the share price goes to zero already as some analysts have predicted? they could already be bought for less than they were worth in the 1920s. no one wants that debt though.

who wouldnt encourage them to BE bought up? yeah everyone loses their shirt on whatevers left in stock but who still has stock in them now? when kerkorian leaves you, there is no reason to stick around.

what power do companies have in a bk? can a new owner do anything with old stock in a bk to give some value to the screwed stock holders if purchased?

obv the real value of earnings would be transfered to the new owners stock value as it rockets to the moon with the increased debt free earnings but people get left out in the cold who held it. can you really feel sorry for anyone who still own that stock though? its pretty much stupidity at this point.

i am conflicted obv, thanks for answering.

only the ones that dont have factorys in other countrys

http://www.ita.doc.gov/static/auto_reports_jobloss.pdf

For those who did not see it the first time. Details employment in the auto sector. This would not be nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

ps. that report is from 2005. total employment in the automotive sector is almost surely lower today due to productivity increases and the shrinking of market share controled by the big 3 American automakers.

I have managed dealerships for about 20 years now, and you are wrong if you think it just affects the makers. Parts suppliers, auction employees, local transporters, advertising people, newspapers, radio, the list is endless as to who this all affects.
Yes, it may be only 150k to the makers themselves, but 3fold to other companies that are related to the industry.