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just read a post, and wanted to start a thread . . . flame away.
so anyway, the U.S. was ranked 37th by the WHO in rankings of the world's health care systems:
(http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html)
yet we spend nearly twice as much on health care per capita (6,096) as any other country:(http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934556.html).
some other examples:
France: rank #1, cost 3,040
Canada: rank #30 cost 3,173
Japan: rank #10 cost 2,293
Iceland: rank #15 cost 2,618
the thing that these countries have in common is that they all have a health care system funded in a substantially larger portion by the government. With the profit seeking attitude of insurance companies, and a lot of hospitals, we are paying WAAYYY more than we should for healthcare, yet still not receiving the quality of care that we deserve, and have the ability to provide. The United States ranked last in a study of the rate of preventable death in 19 industrialized nations:
(http://www.medicinenet.com/script/ma...ticlekey=86292).
something has to be done, and increasing government responsibility for health care is working in many other countries, so why not here? it could potentially be MUCH cheap and MUCH better than it is right now. -
Posts: 8,251
Joined: Feb 06Sep 29th, 2008 (9/29/2008 11:55pm) in reply to Neeek
..............people really cant put 2 and 2 together yet. HAVE YOU SEEN WHAT GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION DOES TO THIS COUNTRY?!?!?!?!
really?
Government intervention has not fixed anything (see housing market and current state of the economy). What makes you think they can fix health care? honestly -
hope and change ftw!?!?!.......sigh
Originally Posted by Admiral
..............people really cant put 2 and 2 together yet. HAVE YOU SEEN WHAT GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION DOES TO THIS COUNTRY?!?!?!?!
really?
Government intervention has not fixed anything (see housing market and current state of the economy). What makes you think they can fix health care? honestly -
Posts: 264
Joined: Jun 07Sep 29th, 2008 (9/29/2008 11:57pm) in reply to Admiral
Originally Posted by Admiral
What makes you think they can fix health care? honestly
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Posts: 8,349
Joined: Sep 05Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:01am) in reply to Dank Diva
did u read what i posted? I just gave numerous examples of how our health care system sucks, and how countries with more nationalized systems are working great. this pretty much proves that the system can work, while the system we have now is godawful. if the government fucks it up, that is another issue, but it is certainly possible to improve, and this is how other countries have done it.Originally Posted by Dank Diva
Originally Posted by Admiral
What makes you think they can fix health care? honestly
just saying it wont work because government intervention hasn't worked in other areas is not enough evidence for anything -
Posts: 264
Joined: Jun 07Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:02am) in reply to Neeek
I suppose then it's a matter of this particular government. Untrustworthy greedy people.
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Rocket Surgeon
& brain scientist
Posts: 12,012
Joined: Apr 05Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:03am) in reply to Neeek
What are these rankings based on
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LeftyC
s1nnr's better half
Posts: 1,899
Joined: Nov 06Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:04am) in reply to Neeek
I think if we get a more "nationalized system" our standards of practice will go down
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Posts: 8,251
Joined: Feb 06Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:05am) in reply to Neeek
Find me anything good to come from government intervention, I'll be the judge. GO!
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Posts: 8,349
Joined: Sep 05Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:08am) in reply to Rocket Surgeon
the WHO rankings are based on a number of factors including lifespan, methods of funding, speed/effectiveness of care, equality, comparison to the countries "potential" for health care (how well it can do with its resources) etc .. .
the preventable diseases one is based on number of deaths by preventable disesase (bacterial infections, diabetes, etc) per 100,000 people, or something similar. -
Posts: 4,268
Joined: Jun 08Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:09am) in reply to Rocket Surgeon
Brian, you hit the nail on the head...Originally Posted by brianyut
What are these rankings based on
Overall, this country has got the 37th rated healthcare system in the world...that includes everything all in one, like: cost of care, access to care (a big point where we are docked, b.c of the 47 mil uninsured), quality of care, etc etc etc...
Everyone in this thread is wholly incorrect when they are saying America has shitty healthcare.
In fact, the quality of care in the United States is the best in the world, bar none. But, everything surrounding this atomic fact is not top notch, and in some areas really fucking bad, which is why we are 37 overall...
But, make no mistake we have the greatest quality of care in the world... -
Posts: 12,317
Joined: Jun 08Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:11am) in reply to Admiral
PM WillywooOriginally Posted by Admiral
Find me anything good to come from government intervention, I'll be the judge. GO!
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Posts: 8,349
Joined: Sep 05Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:11am) in reply to AbnormalQ
while we are ranked pretty well in some areas (responsiveness), there are many factors taken into account, and it seems to be the best available comparative measure. how would you explain the disparity in preventable diseases if our health care is so amazing? that seems like a pretty improtant factor, and good indicator to me.Originally Posted by AbnormalQ
Brian, you hit the nail on the head...Originally Posted by brianyut
What are these rankings based on
Overall, this country has got the 37th rated healthcare system in the world...that includes everything all in one, like: cost of care, access to care (a big point where we are docked, b.c of the 47 mil uninsured), quality of care, etc etc etc...
Everyone in this thread is wholly incorrect when they are saying America has shitty healthcare.
In fact, the quality of care in the United States is the best in the world, bar none. But, everything surrounding this atomic fact is not top notch, and in some areas really fucking bad, which is why we are 37 overall...
But, make no mistake we have the greatest quality of care in the world...
basically, can you give examples or stats what back up these statements? -
Posts: 1,917
Joined: Oct 05Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:12am) in reply to Neeek
The last thing in the world we need is the Government involved in our health care. I have some bad news for you Neeek, in case you have not turned the news on as of late, we are busto, and have no money to provide this.
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Posts: 8,349
Joined: Sep 05Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:14am) in reply to ohioschwa
standard blanket statement to a separate issue. i guess you ignored the part where I showed stats displaying that the system works in other countries? or the part where i showed that the system is actually cheapter in other countries?Originally Posted by ohioschwa
The last thing in the world we need is the Government involved in our health care. I have some bad news for you Neeek, in case you have not turned the news on as of late, we are busto, and have no money to provide this.
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Posts: 4,268
Joined: Jun 08Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:15am) in reply to LeftyC
This, and here's why: Doctors, on a mean basis with all of its multivariate specialties taken together, are the best paid profession in the country. As a result, the profession attracts many of the best and brightest.Originally Posted by LeftyC
I think if we get a more "nationalized system" our standards of practice will go down
Socializing medicine will put a major crimp in the pay of doctors, and future doctors will be economically incentivized away from becoming doctors. Some will be lawyers, corporate clowns, veterinarians, etc etc. So, the next best and brightest will be filling up the spots opened up.
One could get a ton more complicated but that's the fundamental basics. -
Posts: 8,349
Joined: Sep 05Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:17am) in reply to AbnormalQ
doctors get out of med school with like 150k in loans on average (without family help), and must continue for 7 more years or more in order to get a top paying job. basically, you dont have any money until you are 50, which seems to detract from a large part of the economic incentive. I think MUPP could back me up on this one.Originally Posted by AbnormalQ
This, and here's why: Doctors, on a mean basis with all of its multivariate specialties taken together, are the best paid profession in the country. As a result, the profession attracts many of the best and brightest.Originally Posted by LeftyC
I think if we get a more "nationalized system" our standards of practice will go down
Socializing medicine will put a major crimp in the pay of doctors, and future doctors will be economically incentivized away from becoming doctors. Some will be lawyers, corporate clowns, veterinarians, etc etc. So, the next best and brightest will be filling up the spots opened up.
One could get a ton more complicated but that's the fundamental basics.
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Posts: 8,251
Joined: Feb 06Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:20am) in reply to p00pymcp00perton
haha dont worry I talked to him about it for about 2 hours in the car on friday.
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Posts: 1,917
Joined: Oct 05Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:21am) in reply to Neeek
Other countries do not have a 10 Trillion dollar deficit, thats five times the GDP of Germany.Originally Posted by Neeek
that the system works in other countries?
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Posts: 8,349
Joined: Sep 05Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:23am) in reply to ohioschwa
dude, did you read the OP . . . the system could potentially be cheaper per person than it is now. . . you may pay the money to the government instead of your private insurer/other medical bills, but there doesnt need to be more available money, it would actually potentially free up money.Originally Posted by ohioschwa
Other countries do not have a 10 Trillion dollar deficit, thats five times the GDP of Germany.Originally Posted by Neeek
that the system works in other countries?
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Posts: 8,349
Joined: Sep 05Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:24am) in reply to Neeek
for brianyut, here is the link of how it is calculated . . . look about halfway down where the word responsiveness is in bold and go from there:
http://www.photius.com/rankings/who_...lth_ranks.html -
Posts: 704
Joined: Feb 07Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:27am) in reply to Neeek
my wife graduated Vet school in 05 with 100g in loans and that was only vet school. All undergrad was paid for via scholarships. She started at 50K haha. The guy that mows our yard make 75k. Believe me, if you want to make money...veterinary medicine is not the avenue to go down
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Posts: 15,891
Joined: Feb 06Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:28am) in reply to Neeek
what the hell does this have to do with socialized medicine? it's not like i'm going to quit smoking if the government provides me with health care, if anything it would be the opposite. personal responsibility ftw. eat your vegetables children.Originally Posted by Neeek
how would you explain the disparity in preventable diseases if our health care is so amazing?
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Posts: 8,349
Joined: Sep 05Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:29am) in reply to playatwork
pretty much the health care industry is not the avenue for you. optometrists/pharmacists/etc. have 4 year school, nearly as much in loans, and make less than 100kOriginally Posted by playatwork
my wife graduated Vet school in 05 with 100g in loans and that was only vet school. All undergrad was paid for via scholarships. She started at 50K haha. The guy that mows our yard make 75k. Believe me, if you want to make money...veterinary medicine is not the avenue to go down
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Posts: 15,891
Joined: Feb 06Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:29am) in reply to Neeek
need an MRI? how's tomorrow?Originally Posted by Neeek
basically, can you give examples or stats what back up these statements?
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Posts: 8,349
Joined: Sep 05Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:31am) in reply to emcee21
I mean preventable disease deaths. lung cancer from smoking would not be a preventable disease. things like bacterial infections, diabetes, etc. related deaths can be prevented with proper health care. if people are dying from these, there is a problem . . .Originally Posted by emcee21
what the hell does this have to do with socialized medicine? it's not like i'm going to quit smoking if the government provides me with health care, if anything it would be the opposite. personal responsibility ftw. eat your vegetables children.Originally Posted by Neeek
how would you explain the disparity in preventable diseases if our health care is so amazing?
it has nothing to do with socialized medicine explicitly, but it is a good measure of how shitty our current system is . . . -
Posts: 8,349
Joined: Sep 05Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:33am) in reply to emcee21
responsiveness (speed of care) is one of the measuring sticks used. we are already first in this area, and it may get worse, but that doesnt mean the system as a whole isn't improving. this is also directly related to availability of resources for care, of which the U.S. already has plenty.Originally Posted by emcee21
need an MRI? how's tomorrow?Originally Posted by Neeek
basically, can you give examples or stats what back up these statements?
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Posts: 4,268
Joined: Jun 08Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:34am) in reply to Neeek
Thanks for the quick lesson on medical student loans. Needed that. Especially considering that my Mom and Dad are BOTH doctors, my Stepmom and wife are nurses and I just recently started a healthcare marketing company with several extremely successful docs from Chicago as clients.Originally Posted by Neeek
doctors get out of med school with like 150k in loans on average (without family help), and must continue for 7 more years or more in order to get a top paying job. basically, you dont have any money until you are 50, which seems to detract from a large part of the economic incentive. I think MUPP could back me up on this one.Originally Posted by AbnormalQ
This, and here's why: Doctors, on a mean basis with all of its multivariate specialties taken together, are the best paid profession in the country. As a result, the profession attracts many of the best and brightest.Originally Posted by LeftyC
I think if we get a more "nationalized system" our standards of practice will go down
Socializing medicine will put a major crimp in the pay of doctors, and future doctors will be economically incentivized away from becoming doctors. Some will be lawyers, corporate clowns, veterinarians, etc etc. So, the next best and brightest will be filling up the spots opened up.
One could get a ton more complicated but that's the fundamental basics.
But, I guess I try too hard... -
Posts: 12,317
Joined: Jun 08Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:36am) in reply to Admiral
Lol - he asked the same question about one month ago. A chip off the ol' block I see.Originally Posted by Admiral
haha dont worry I talked to him about it for about 2 hours in the car on friday.
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Rocket Surgeon
& brain scientist
Posts: 12,012
Joined: Apr 05Sep 30th, 2008 (9/30/2008 12:36am) in reply to Neeek
I think it's a good measure of how out of shape we are. We smoke too much. We drink too much. We eat like absolutely shit. We order wayyyyy too much fast food. We don't exercise. Our culture emphasizes laziness. We feed our kids poorly because we don't even know how to feed ourselves. We don't force our kids to go outside and interact with other children, they just sit behind a tv and put on the lbs. I could go on and on.Originally Posted by Neeek
I mean preventable disease deaths. lung cancer from smoking would not be a preventable disease. things like bacterial infections, diabetes, etc. related deaths can be prevented with proper health care. if people are dying from these, there is a problem . . .
it has nothing to do with socialized medicine explicitly, but it is a good measure of how shitty our current system is . . .
Really it's a cultural problem, not a health care problem.
Correlation does not imply causation.
"Death is caused by swallowing small amounts of saliva over a large period of time." -George Carlin
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