Originally Posted by FenwayKing

 

Originally Posted by AmSlim22

Do u think I just woke up one day and decided to believe in higher power? I have had experiences that have led me to believe.

I don't think that. I just think you're attempting to reason through an enormous subject beginning in the middle, instead of working from the bottom-up. I'm not worried about it.

 

Originally Posted by AmSlim22

Hasn't our physical nature just evolved to make us a very complex machine in ur opinion?

here begins the circle: define machine.

even taking our physical self as a whole, we're just another organism--a blip on the evolutionary radar. when I say our brain is calling the shots I'm not being terribly precise, because the brain along with the innumerable electro-chemical signals throughout our body work together to help each of us succeed biologically, which is in itself our purpose or "meaning of life" if you want to go that route. in the same way a tree grows tougher bark and produces fruit higher than it did before, we have (among other things) become smarter.

 

Originally Posted by AmSlim22

Isn't any idea of control over whether u kill ur neighbor or not just a trick ur brain is playing on u to make u think ur ego or something is in control? (fwk feel free to answer as well)

not at all. in reality a human being exists for a moment, over and over and over again, until these moments become a lifetime. kasparov isn't a great chess "player" -- rather, he plays chess greatly over and over again. it's a subtle point but it would help, if such a thing is possible, to temporarily divorce your identity and try reasoning as objectively as possible.

each human uses some amount of its cognitive ability to make decisions in the present. it keeps making these decisions while retaining knowledge of its past and possibly the future. over time the being becomes aware of a growing number of these behaviors and the sum understanding of itself becomes an identity/ego/self/mind. thus the mind in and of itself is not a biological entity but a convenient reflection of our behavior. this knowledge of what we are helps us to survive. that we're so self-aware is a testament to the power of evolution applied over time.

 

Originally Posted by AmSlim22

what evidence is there to dismiss the contention of a higher power? or do u just mean the lack of evidence to support it is evidence to dismiss it?

that's exactly what I mean. it's as much a fact as an idea can be that the onus is the believer's.

 

Originally Posted by AmSlim22

my whole point in these threads is that it is possible that way back somebody tried to explain something unexplainable and in the game of telephone that is religion it became a crazy, easily dismissible story with what we are able to know today. that doesnt mean that there is no grain of truth within it. both sides of the debate can be both wrong and right. its doesnt have to be one or the other. the god of religion can be a fallacy and the atheist idea of nothing beyond our birth and death can also be a fallacy.

I don't write the storyline. I just begin with our level of understanding and avoid inserting dialogue without appropriate evidence. we're at a point in our ability to harness energy that our collection of this knowledge will grow at an accelerating rate. we're fortunate to exist at a point in space-time where we can draw off thousands of years of exploration and reflection. understanding the joke history of religion should be enough to dismiss the creation stories but I'm not going there today.

I'm not here to advocate anyone else's-- athiest or not-- understanding/explanation of our reality. I'm just here to articulate what my "mind" believes.

 

Originally Posted by AmSlim22

that is my basic point in these threads.

I won't disagree with you that every "side" of the story has its faults. that's why I don't choose to let others speak for me. it would be a petty existence to let others make up my mind.

 

Originally Posted by AmSlim22

From ur pov, explain where the thought "i have a choice", originates? Argue the position of having control over ur actions.

now coming back to this post...

I don't even want to use the word "I" but we don't have sufficiently precise language to most effectively make my point.

I was created. I have a cause, already fulfilled by my parents. now that I exist I operate within my abilities while reflecting my DNA. it's natural to think of behaviors in "sets," in which you either do something or you don't. I'd rather say Hank H1LL behaves in a way that maximizes his biological potential. there are forks in the road but I'm fortunate enough to have 5 awesome physical senses to steer me in the right direction.

no worries, have a good one.

sometimes you just gotta argue on the internet.

 

Originally Posted by AmSlim22

what evidence is there to dismiss the contention of a higher power? or do u just mean the lack of evidence to support it is evidence to dismiss it?

my whole point in these threads is that it is possible that way back somebody tried to explain something unexplainable and in the game of telephone that is religion it became a crazy, easily dismissible story with what we are able to know today. that doesnt mean that there is no grain of truth within it. both sides of the debate can be both wrong and right. its doesnt have to be one or the other. the god of religion can be a fallacy and the atheist idea of nothing beyond our birth and death can also be a fallacy.

that is my basic point in these threads.

Seriously tho, my point in these threads is that I am not wrong. Neither is this guy:



"See, that's religion; ego masquerading as humility." - Bill Maher

 

Originally Posted by David Whats

At least science acknowledges there are gaps in it's knowledge, and that mistakes in their theories have, do, and will continue to happen. I see no such contrition from organised religion, which just makes me even more suspicious of it's agenda.

QFT.

THIS is the exact point I am trying to make. I can sit here and say that I don't know all of the answers but the religious are SO sure there is a god. It gets frustrating that they can't see how irrational this type of thinking is.

 

Originally Posted by chs3rd

OT one of the few places in world where fucking your cousin is more acceptable than belief in God.

Because sometimes, just sometimes, fucking your cousin makes sense.

 

Originally Posted by smheilbron

if god has this amazing power to stop you from dying in a car wreck, it may be easier and less painful if he didnt allow the car accident to happen in the 1st place. or is it because "god works in mysterious ways"

 

Originally Posted by TheWacoKidd

at least there is some logic behind fucking your cousin.

As much as i hate it, I agree with Waco.

 

Originally Posted by chiptaker31

its not what we do as people that decides whether our souls suffer or lives, it is if we have faith in him or not. I know this won't change any opinions. Just stating what ppl (or I, i guess) believe. God Bless

people dont have souls

 

Originally Posted by chiptaker31

its not what we do as people that decides whether our souls suffer or lives, it is if we have faith in him or not. I know this won't change any opinions. Just stating what ppl (or I, i guess) believe. God Bless

still asking a lot of people when the word eternity starts getting thrown around.

and still nobody has sufficiently convinced me that we can have any free will, in this physical world,
that doesn't include some higher form of the self.

choice with regards to an action i guess. maybe it isnt even the right term. but for the people believing in no higher anything, i don't see how any action isnt just attributable to a previous action if we just deal with the knowable phsical reality they perceive.

where does a though originate? if the brain creates it, then we are machines, albeit very complex ones. if a thought can come from a less tangible place (soul, higher self, higher conscious, something i dont even know or can imagine) then there is some choice, at least in this reality.

seems pretty simple to understand the idea.

Atheist and agnostic aren't the same

I'm not really sure where you are at to be honest because I think that language is failing your inner feeling in the communication process... or my perception of it.

Figure this belongs in this thread....

Rick Santorum Daughter Hospitalized: GOP Candidate Cancels Events In Florida

Rick Santorum was overhead asking god to give him a sign if he should get out of the race. God doesn't fuck around.

 

Originally Posted by AmSlim22

ok....

i have no clue what u dont get. i think there is something beyond our physical reality. im not sure what, but have had experiences to lead me to think that. others think there isnt anything, and i am curious how they then don't just think we are anything more than a complex machine. im not even trying to explain all that difficult a concept.

maybe u jumped into to my replies to others at some point along the way, which is why u are confused. besides that i cant really see what is so confusing to u.

What were those experiences? I'm just curious tbh.