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quick lawyer curbside consult needed

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  1. MUPokerPlayer MUPokerPlayer is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 12:49pm)

    I know there are several lawyers and soon-to-be-lawyers in OT. Could you help w/ a little employment contract law?

    Lets say an employee contract states the following: " [Employee shall] Maintain his principal personal residence no further than 30 miles from the city limits of xxx."

    In legal speak, does that imply "as the crow flies" distance or road miles?

    Thanks in advance!
  2. niptuck niptuck is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 12:53pm) in reply to MUPokerPlayer

    crow would be my guess
  3. Willywoo Willywoo is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 1:00pm) in reply to niptuck

    lol It depends. What do you want the answer to be?
  4. Willywoo Willywoo is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 1:05pm) in reply to MUPokerPlayer

    more serious answer:

    It could depend on the purpose of the limitation, who drafted the contract or there could be other evidence (extrinsic evidence) that shows what the answer is.

    With no other information, I go with, "as the crow flies".
  5. MUPokerPlayer MUPokerPlayer is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 1:05pm) in reply to Willywoo

    What do you mean it depends? That's exactly what the contract states. There are no other clauses addressing the issue.
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  6. niptuck niptuck is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 1:09pm) in reply to MUPokerPlayer

    [QUOTE=MUPokerPlayer;6894426That's exactly what the contract states. There are no other clauses addressing the issue.[/QUOTE]

    IN that case you can make it whatever you want it to be. It would be hard for your employer to argue that by "30 miles from work" really means "20 miles as the crow flys but 30 driving miles". How could they fire you if you live 29 miles from the hospital and the contract says within 30 without expressely saying driving miles?
    Edited By: niptuck May 31st, 2012 at 01:09 PM
  7. MUPokerPlayer MUPokerPlayer is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 1:11pm) in reply to MUPokerPlayer

    The purpose of the limitation, although not stated, is likely to make sure the employee is within a reasonable distance to the place of employment.

    But as written, I don't think one can just assume they mean one way or the other--I was just wondering if there is some understood legal definition of such a statement.
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  8. SpankyHamm SpankyHamm is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 1:12pm) in reply to MUPokerPlayer

    I would assume as the crow flies, but if there are reasons for this in the contract (i.e. quick availability to worksite) you probably need to ask them.

    If you live at Point A and work is 20 miles away as the crow flies, but because of geography (water, mountains) the shortest drive is 40 miles, it probably would be a problem.
     
  9. Willywoo Willywoo is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 1:17pm) in reply to SpankyHamm

    In Michigan it might be road miles.:

    "In this case, I conclude that the proper interpretation of MCL 15.602(2) accords with the latter context and therefore must be in “road miles.”   Typically, employees must travel to and from work along public roadways (particularly if they reside 20 or more miles from their place of employment).   Accordingly, the Legislature must have intended a measurement along the course of the highways".

    http://caselaw.findlaw.com/mi-court-...s/1063950.html

    But this case was in a certain context determining a statutory provision relating to a collective bargaining agreement.

    Apparently there is no easy answer. It would need some research on the law in the specific state.
    Edited By: Willywoo May 31st, 2012 at 01:20 PM
  10. MonkeyCowboy MonkeyCowboy is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 1:21pm) in reply to Willywoo

    What if you live in a Bus and it could be 10 feet away or 1000 miles?
  11. raisethis2 raisethis2 is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 2:09pm) in reply to MonkeyCowboy

    30 mile radius.............c'mon man. The legal concept is that the interpretation cannot go beyond "the four corners of the page". Would the employer really want to test (in court or arbitration) the meaning of language they had a hand in drafting to benefit themselves? I'd think not.

    If they meant something more specific it's their duty to spell it out more precisely.
    Edited By: raisethis2 May 31st, 2012 at 02:13 PM
  12. El Burro El Burro is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 2:19pm) in reply to raisethis2

    Just tell them that you have a helicopter.
  13. coolhandkev coolhandkev is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 2:38pm) in reply to MonkeyCowboy

     
    Originally Posted by MonkeyCowboy View Post

    What if you live in a Bus and it could be 10 feet away or 1000 miles?

    In this case you have to tie a 30 mile rope to your bus attached to a pole at your work.
  14. Willywoo Willywoo is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 2:51pm) in reply to raisethis2

     
    Originally Posted by raisethis2 View Post

    30 mile radius.............c'mon man. The legal concept is that the interpretation cannot go beyond "the four corners of the page". Would the employer really want to test (in court or arbitration) the meaning of language they had a hand in drafting to benefit themselves? I'd think not.

    If they meant something more specific it's their duty to spell it out more precisely.

    The general rule, called the parole evidence rule, is that you cannot go beyond the written agreement to add to or change the written agreement, but there are several exceptions, ambiguity being one of them.

    If a term or provision is ambiguous, even after extrinsic evidence, then the general rule is that the language is to be construed against the drafter of the agreement, usually the employer. I would not assume the employer would not want to test it. If the employee were my client I would have him clear his place of residence with the employer before he moved (or bought the house). If he has already moved I would probably tell him to keep quiet because the longer he lives there without a complaint from the employer the better for him.
  15. Numan Numan is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 3:43pm) in reply to Willywoo

     
    Originally Posted by Willywoo View Post

    Apparently there is no easy answer. It would need some research on the law in the specific state.

    But MUPP does not want to pay for research.
  16. EyeKnows EyeKnows is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 4:14pm) in reply to Numan

    I'd ask the employer, they might know what they meant.

    if it's the city I am thinking I hope you don't have to move there. it's like the '50's there and not the good kinda '50's.
  17. Luho Luho is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 4:17pm) in reply to EyeKnows

    Are you going to be on call with this job?
     
  18. norcaljeff norcaljeff is offline 2010 OT Thread Kill Leader

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 4:29pm) in reply to Luho

    How could it be anything other than driving miles unless el burro is correct about your helicopter?
  19. (oIo) (oIo) is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 4:31pm) in reply to norcaljeff

    Have them rewrite the contract and get rid of that. Is it because of tax breaks for your employer? Like if they need a certain percentage of employees to reside in the metro area to be eligible for tax breaks. I dunno.
  20. Niceguy Niceguy is offline I will find you.

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 4:31pm) in reply to (oIo)

    Don't like where this thread is going. It's looking like it was a good idea to not tell your previous employer to kiss your ass.
    Edited By: Niceguy May 31st, 2012 at 04:32 PM
  21. Luho Luho is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 4:37pm) in reply to Niceguy

    I just figured that MUPP is working at a hospital, and said hospital requires certain employees to be on call. Therefore, they would also state in the contract a maximum allowable distance to live due to on call purposes.

    I could be completely incorrect about his situation, but I know I have to be within 20 miles at my hospital due to having a position that requires the employee to be on call.
     
  22. norcaljeff norcaljeff is offline 2010 OT Thread Kill Leader

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 5:24pm) in reply to Luho

    Ohhhh you're a proctologist! Now nasty's comments seem less dirty
  23. Luho Luho is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 5:41pm) in reply to norcaljeff

    If you use his recommendation, I'll hook you both up!
     
  24. El Burro El Burro is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 5:42pm) in reply to norcaljeff

     
    Originally Posted by norcaljeff View Post

    Ohhhh you're a proctologist! Now nasty's comments seem less dirty

    Actually, he's a podiatrist. Proctology is just a hobby.
  25. LeftyMark LeftyMark is offline Pee Wee's Big Adventure

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 5:54pm) in reply to El Burro

    I take it you live more than 30 miles of actual driving from work?
  26. Mr Galt Mr Galt is offline sister-in-law's a ho

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 6:01pm) in reply to LeftyMark

    One option is to seek clarification with the employer. Best accomplished in writing and signed by both parties.
  27. MUPokerPlayer MUPokerPlayer is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 7:07pm) in reply to Luho

     
    Originally Posted by Luho View Post

    I just figured that MUPP is working at a hospital, and said hospital requires certain employees to be on call. Therefore, they would also state in the contract a maximum allowable distance to live due to on call purposes.

    I could be completely incorrect about his situation, but I know I have to be within 20 miles at my hospital due to having a position that requires the employee to be on call.

    do you have to be 20 driving miles, or 20 miles from the two points when drawn with a straight line on a map?
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  28. Donkey Kong Donkey Kong is online now it's on like me

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 7:13pm) in reply to MUPokerPlayer

    i would say they mean the two points and a straight line mileage. its easier for them to prove whether or not you live within the distance rather then mapping out the driving miles
    Edited By: Donkey Kong May 31st, 2012 at 07:13 PM
  29. EyeKnows EyeKnows is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 7:20pm) in reply to Donkey Kong

     
    Originally Posted by Donkey Kong View Post

    i would say they mean the two points and a straight line mileage. its easier for them to prove whether or not you live within the distance rather then mapping out the driving miles

    doubt this, how hard would it be to google/mapquest the distance?
  30. KingPariah KingPariah is offline

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    May 31st, 2012 (5/31/2012 8:06pm) in reply to EyeKnows

    Can I ask a legal question while we're at it? If someone were to pay me $5.00 to call their boss and cuss them out (but have the employee remain anonymous) and speak their mind for them, could I get in trouble as long as I didn't threaten them?
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