Check out our brand new Local Poker Communities! Get updates and interact with poker players in your area.
Visit the United States Poker Community | Visit the California Poker Community | Read more about the Launch of P5s Local
  1. Pretty big decision by the courts to limit the powers of government to spy on its people.

     

    The Supreme Court ruled unanimously Monday that law enforcement authorities need a probable-cause warrant from a judge to affix a GPS device to a vehicle and monitor its every move. The decision (.pdf) in what is arguably the biggest Fourth Amendment case in the computer age, rejected the Obama administrations position. The government had told the high court that it could even affix GPS devices on the vehicles of all members of the Supreme Court, without a warrant.We hold that the governments installation of a GPS device on a targets vehicle, and its use of that device to monitor the vehicles movements, constitutes a search, Justice Antonin Scalia wrote.

    http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/201...us-gps-ruling/
     3
  2. I'm a fan of the decision, but I think Alito's analysis is better than Scalia's.

     
    Originally Posted by Justice Alito in his concurring opinion View Post

    This case requires us to apply the Fourth Amendment’s prohibition of unreasonable searches and seizures to a 21st-century surveillance technique, the use of a Global Positioning System (GPS) device to monitor a vehicle’s movements for an extended period of time. Ironically, the Court has chosen to decide this case based on 18th-century tort law. By attaching a small GPS device to the underside of the vehicle that respondent drove, the law enforcement officers in this case engaged in conduct that might have provided grounds in 1791 for a suit for trespass
    to chattels. And for this reason, the Court concludes, the installation and use of the GPS device constituted a search.

    This holding, in my judgment, is unwise. It strains the language of the Fourth Amendment; it has little if any support in current Fourth Amendment case law; and it is highly artificial. I would analyze the question presented in this case by asking whether respondent’s reasonable expectations of privacy were violated by the long-term monitoring of the movements of the vehicle he drove.

    Link to the decision.

    Sotomayor also does a good job of explaining why the majority's characterization of the case may prove problematic.

     
    Originally Posted by Justice Sotomayor in her concurring opinion View Post

    The trespassory test applied in the majority’s opinion reflects an irreducible constitutional minimum: When the Government physically invades personal property to gather information, a search occurs. The reaffirmation of that principle suffices to decide this case.

    Nonetheless, as JUSTICE ALITO notes, physical intrusion is now unnecessary to many forms of surveillance. With increasing regularity, the Government will be capable of duplicating the monitoring undertaken in this case by enlisting factory- or owner-installed vehicle tracking devices or GPS-enabled smartphones. In cases of electronic or other novel modes of surveillance that do not depend upon a physical invasion on property, the majority opinion’s trespassory test may provide little guidance.

    Edited By: Purple Jesus Jan 23rd, 2012 at 06:21 PM
  3. I disagree. I like Scalia's take. It is based upon property rights. It shouldn't be based upon your "expectation of privacy". Since all rights derive from property and the principle idea that one owns ther own body thus they are free, it it logical to conclude that since you own your vehicle you have the right to not have it searched, trespassed or altered without due process. I'm not totally against Alito's take. I just think the property angle is more solid, at least for those of us who believe that all rights are derived from property rights.
     3
    Thread Starter
  4. Scalia's arguments almost always make sense because he's a master argumentator, but you've got to read between the lines to realize what he fails to mention/address in his opinion(s). I think Sotomayor does a great job of pointing out that, under Scalia's framing of the issues, only physical intrusion is protected as an unreasonable search, meaning the government can still conduct surveillance using factory or owner-installed vehicle tracking devices or GPS-enabled smartphones.
  5.  
    Originally Posted by Purple Jesus View Post

    Scalia's arguments almost always make sense because he's a master argumentator, but you've got to read between the lines to realize what he fails to mention/address in his opinion(s). I think Sotomayor does a great job of pointing out that, under Scalia's framing of the issues, only physical intrusion is protected as an unreasonable search, meaning the government can still conduct surveillance using factory or owner-installed vehicle tracking devices or GPS-enabled smartphones.

    You'd have to explain an example of what you mean. What would compel a factory to install a device so that the government can track its customers and what customer base would buy vehicles from such a company? I mean yeah, if you have a "far left" kind of position that the government has the right to own factories and such then you'd need to make up such an argument in order to hang on to the position of protecting privacy. But is there a logical way for government to achieve this in a world where private property rights are sancrosanct?
     3
    Thread Starter
  6. Sotomayor is basically saying that the majority opinion only covers this narrow instance - where the government physically attaches a tracking device to the car - but does not cover instances in which the government may monitor tracking devices that were not physically attached by the government.

    Examples of factory-installed vehicle tracking devices:
    - Navigation systems installed by car companies.
    - Tracking devices installed by car companies, like OnStar.
    - Any device installed by the manufacturer that could give a vehicle's position and movement (there are probably many being developed atm, especially for anti-theft purposes).

    Examples of owner-installed vehicle tracking devices:
    - Navigation systems such as Garmin, TomTom, etc.
    - Any device installed by the vehicle's owner that could give the vehicle's position and movement.

    And then there's GPS-enabled smartphones, which are pretty self-explanatory.
  7. good, I don't want government knowing what my grades are without probable cause.
  8.  
    Originally Posted by Purple Jesus View Post

    Sotomayor is basically saying that the majority opinion only covers this narrow instance - where the government physically attaches a tracking device to the car - but does not cover instances in which the government may monitor tracking devices that were not physically attached by the government.

    Examples of factory-installed vehicle tracking devices:
    - Navigation systems installed by car companies.
    - Tracking devices installed by car companies, like OnStar.
    - Any device installed by the manufacturer that could give a vehicle's position and movement (there are probably many being developed atm, especially for anti-theft purposes).

    Examples of owner-installed vehicle tracking devices:
    - Navigation systems such as Garmin, TomTom, etc.
    - Any device installed by the vehicle's owner that could give the vehicle's position and movement.

    And then there's GPS-enabled smartphones, which are pretty self-explanatory.

    Still don't understand. Why isn't it the consumer's responsibility to ensure that he isn't transmitting information into the public domain? If I speak on my cellphone out in public it is known that one can monitor such communication via scanner. So why isn't it the responsibility of the consumer to demand a cell phone with the appropriate encryption technology to ensure that conversation remains private? All your examples require consent from the property owner for such devices to be attached. As for my "GPS-enabled smartphone", I ensure that I have it set to not constantly track my location. I only turn that feature on when I need use of the GPS.
    Edited By: Dyzalot Jan 23rd, 2012 at 07:03 PM
     3
    Thread Starter
  9.  
    Originally Posted by Lord Supremo View Post

    good, I don't want government knowing what my grades are without probable cause.

    Edited By: Purple Jesus Jan 23rd, 2012 at 07:06 PM
  10. Also, its pretty clear that this ruling doesn't matter at all. After all, I can find a Supreme Court case that says government can forcibly steralize "undesirables" as well...
  11.  
    Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post

    All your examples require consent from the property owner for such devices to be attached. As for my "GPS-enabled smartphone", I ensure that I have it set to not constantly track my location. I only turn that feature on when I need use of the GPS.

    fwiw it doesn't really matter if you turn GPS off, they don't need it to track you. As long as you have cell service you can be tracked. GPS just makes it a bit more accurate.
    2
  12.  
    Originally Posted by Lord Supremo View Post

    Also, its pretty clear that this ruling doesn't matter at all. After all, I can find a Supreme Court case that says government can forcibly steralize "undesirables" as well...

    It matters for practical sake, not for philisophical sake as we already had this right. Rights don't change. All that changes is how far the state infringes upon those rights. Because the Supreme Court has an affect on the degree of that infingement, this is an important case.

     
    Originally Posted by threeven View Post

    fwiw it doesn't really matter if you turn GPS off, they don't need it to track you. As long as you have cell service you can be tracked. GPS just makes it a bit more accurate.

    Really? Just "a bit"? Kind of depressing. How much of a difference does it make? From knowing what house you are at to? neighborhood? city?
     3
    Thread Starter
  13.  
    Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post


    Really? Just "a bit"? Kind of depressing. How much of a difference does it make? From knowing what house you are at to? neighborhood? city?

    Same neighborhoodish.
    2
  14. Dyz: if you agree with a property rights approach then would you overturn Katz? FWIW I teach constitutional criminal procedure at a local university and cannot wait to talk about this on Wednesday. Especially since I just got done telling my class last week that a warrant was not required to GPS vehicles.

    I'm not sure I agree with the Court on this one.
  15.  
    Originally Posted by gosalukis83 View Post

    I'm not sure I agree with the Court on this one.

    In what way? Please elaborate.
  16.  
    Originally Posted by gosalukis83 View Post

    Dyz: if you agree with a property rights approach then would you overturn Katz? FWIW I teach constitutional criminal procedure at a local university and cannot wait to talk about this on Wednesday. Especially since I just got done telling my class last week that a warrant was not required to GPS vehicles.

    I'm not sure I agree with the Court on this one.

    Well after reading the wiki to brush up on it I would have one question, did the FBI get permission from the owner of the phone booth to alter the phone booth? If they did then I agree with Hugo Balck's dissent and would favor overturning it. If they didn't then I would argue that the government has no right to mess with someone's property, even in a case where they are pursuing a third party, except under more extreme cases such as chasing a fleeing suspect across private property.
    Edited By: Dyzalot Jan 23rd, 2012 at 08:52 PM
     3
    Thread Starter
  17.  
    Originally Posted by Purple Jesus View Post

    In what way? Please elaborate.

    In the sense that while you are driving your car you are essentially broadcasting your private actions in a public manner. It would not be unconstitutional for the police to tail a person 24/7 as a way to track activities.

    I can see an argument that you "assume the risk" when you open up your actions to 3rd parties. For example, you cannot speak in a private setting in earshot of a third party and assume your conversation will remain private.
  18.  
    Originally Posted by Purple Jesus View Post

    In what way? Please elaborate.

    In the sense that while you are driving your car you are essentially broadcasting your private actions in a public manner. It would not be unconstitutional for the police to tail a person 24/7 as a way to track activities.

    I can see an argument that you "assume the risk" when you open up your actions to 3rd parties. For example, you cannot speak in a private setting in earshot of a third party and assume your conversation will remain private.
  19.  
    Originally Posted by gosalukis83 View Post

    In the sense that while you are driving your car you are essentially broadcasting your private actions in a public manner. It would not be unconstitutional for the police to tail a person 24/7 as a way to track activities.

    I'm pretty sure the scope of this decision does not affect that police activity. Stakeouts and "tails" are still allowed by current court interpretation of the Constituion.
     3
    Thread Starter
  20.  
    Originally Posted by threeven View Post

    Same neighborhoodish.

    I bet its better then that. My Iphone is pretty damn accurate with map apps., but not sure if they can get same from my phone off of the towers.
  21.  
    Originally Posted by gosalukis83 View Post

    In the sense that while you are driving your car you are essentially broadcasting your private actions in a public manner. It would not be unconstitutional for the police to tail a person 24/7 as a way to track activities.

    I can see an argument that you "assume the risk" when you open up your actions to 3rd parties. For example, you cannot speak in a private setting in earshot of a third party and assume your conversation will remain private.

    Gotcha. While I disagree with the result it dictates, it's a sound argument.

     
    Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post

    I'm pretty sure the scope of this decision does not affect that police activity. Stakeouts and "tails" are still allowed by current court interpretation of the Constituion.

    Right. He's saying that GPS tracking should be constitutional because a 24/7 tail is constitutional, and they're both instances in which you are broadcasting your private actions in a public manner.
  22.  
    Originally Posted by gosalukis83 View Post

    In the sense that while you are driving your car you are essentially broadcasting your private actions in a public manner. It would not be unconstitutional for the police to tail a person 24/7 as a way to track activities.
    .

    I agree with Sotomayor's response to this. It is true that in any one trip you make in your car, you are exposing yourself to the risk that someone, including the government, will see what you are doing, follow you to wherever you're going, make conclusions about that, and the like. However, it also seems to be true that there is a reasonable expectation that the totality of your movements over a long period of time enjoy a certain degree of privacy because no one could reasonably track you for that long. In this case, the guy who they put a GPS device on was perfectly tracked for four weeks. As Sotomayor says, before the advent of GPS technology it would have taken a heap of policemen working out of multiple vehicles with aerial support to get that sort of information about somebody. Because of that, you could have security in the knowledge that the totality of your movements were private because the cost of obtaining that information would be prohibitively high. I suppose its true that this is no longer the case and that everyone knows this is no longer the case, but I'm not comfortable with the idea that the advance of technology means the government suddenly has incredible new rights to surveillance without judicial oversight.
  23.  
    Originally Posted by Purple Jesus View Post

    Right. He's saying that GPS tracking should be constitutional because a 24/7 tail is constitutional, and they're both instances in which you are broadcasting your private actions in a public manner.

    He's ignoring the difference in the private property aspect. One police activity doesn't affect private property. The other one does.
    Edited By: Dyzalot Jan 23rd, 2012 at 09:24 PM
     3
    Thread Starter
  24. Shit, if this ruling had come down 10 years ago, D'Angelo Barksdale might still be alive now.
    Edited By: ltquick Jan 23rd, 2012 at 09:36 PM
  25.  
    Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post

    He's ignoring the difference in the private property aspect. One police activity doesn't affect private property. The other one does.

    I understand what you are saying on this one. But there are several SCOTUS decisions that say that your vehicle does not enjoy the same 4th Amendment protections as your home or other types of "private property."
  26.  
    Originally Posted by ltquick View Post

    Shit, if this ruling had come down 10 years ago, D'Angelo Barksdale might still be alive now.

  27.  
    Originally Posted by gosalukis83 View Post

    I understand what you are saying on this one. But there are several SCOTUS decisions that say that your vehicle does not enjoy the same 4th Amendment protections as your home or other types of "private property."

    Those decisions are wrong. How can one claim to protect private property and then say that your car doesn't get the same protection as your body or your house? It makes no logical sense.
     3
    Thread Starter
  28.  
    Originally Posted by Lord Supremo View Post

    I'm not comfortable with the idea that the advance of technology means the government suddenly has incredible new rights to surveillance without judicial oversight.

    This pretty much sums up my philosophical stance on the subject. Well put.
  29.  
    Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post

    Those decisions are wrong. How can one claim to protect private property and then say that your car doesn't get the same protection as your body or your house? It makes no logical sense.

    The rationale given by the Court is that the 4th Amendment is supposed to protect "intimate activities" and your activities that you open up to the public (like driving down the road or talking on your cellphone in public) are less intimate than the home.

    The same rationale is used when the Court determined that "open fields" do not enjoy 4th amendment protection, even if they are fenced off with no trespassing signs.
  30.  
    Originally Posted by Purple Jesus View Post

    This pretty much sums up my philosophical stance on the subject. Well put.

    While I agree with the fears I just don't see where my questions have been answered. Can someone give me an example of how government would force or coerce the private markets to allow monitoring of its population in a system that protects the sanctity of private property? I'm not totally closed minded here. As I've said before, part of the reason I like to debate is to strengthen or shatter my belief in something as I test the arguments I believe to be true. Show me how I am wrong here.
     3
    Thread Starter

Similar Threads