Originally Posted by XXEDPXX

Its kind of idealistic (not sure if that really the right word but whatever) but I believe one of the things that makes this country great is that its a melting pot. "give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free." its why most of our ancestors came here. then when its convenient we wanna turn people away. its so hypocritical and against what this country supposed to be about. all for the sake of minor convenience. plus i dont think opening the borders would be the apocalypse some of you want to make it out to be. and even if it became somewhat of an inconvenience it should be something we just deal with.

Yeah but most of those poor tired and huddled masses on the boats (the majority of our ancestors) came here legally.

For the record I don't necessarily agree with our immigration policies, but then we should go about changing them not just pick and choose which laws we enforce.

 

Originally Posted by Niceguy

That's idealistic. Morality can be changed to fit the circumstance while legality tends to be more rigid.

So you judge those who illegally freed slaves as worse than those who owned slaves back in "the day"?

 

Originally Posted by snaggs

Yeah but most of those poor tired and huddled masses on the boats (the majority of our ancestors) came here legally.

For the record I don't necessarily agree with our immigration policies, but then we should go about changing them not just pick and choose which laws we enforce.

Saying that they came "legally" is an insipid argument since there was no such thing as illegal immigration back then.

 

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

However, I don't see how the taxpayer is any more of a "victim" to the illegal immigrant as he is to a legal one or even a non-immigrant who caused the same results. Its like saying its ok to be robbed by citizens but not by illegal immigrants.

I'm assuming the illegal immigrant costs far less than the run of the mill poor person. I really have no idea, but is it that easy for an illegal immigrant to get benefits? Things like using public schools and parks, I don't see the cost to the citizens. Health care is a legitimate cost, though.

So does piece of shit pulitzer prize winner pay taxes?

 

Originally Posted by Neeek

i wonder how all this would change if the word illegal didn't exist in this context.

I have yet to see you justify the word on a fundamental basis. why should it be illegal? who the fuck are you are anyone else to decide where someone can and cannot migrate?

ok, i'l tackle this yet again.

the victims will be everyone who lives here. obviously not in a racist LOL brown people way like you think im arguing (or you're making fun of me, whatever) but in an obvious economic way.

almost by definition, the people who will want to move here will be people who are lacking opportunities in their home country. If you're poor and you're from a shit country, you're gonna come to the US to live a better life. However, you won't be able to pay for healthcare, so the US will have to support you at a cost it can't afford. Who else will move here? people with criminal records who want to escape the law or have no opportunities back at home. people who are very sick and want medical treatment in US hospitals instead of crappy mexican ones. your system doesn't work because the US does not have unlimited money and cannot support an infinite number of people.

not to mention the fact that with an open border it will be fucking impossible for law enforcement to do their job wrt to guns and prostitution, as i've been saying repeatedly. it's already difficult enough with our somewhat-closed border, but if we open it up, gangs smuggling stuff over the border will be LOL-easy.

 

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

So you judge those who illegally freed slaves as worse than those who owned slaves back in "the day"?

It's cheap to go to that card because of my race. But no of course I don't. Slavery is an abomination.

I fell into the signature dyzalot apples to oranges trap.

 

Terrible argument. Breaking the law a long time ago is irrelevant. If you don't want to end up in this scenario, don't break the law in the first place. Your argument is tantamount to saying that if someone escapes from prison and is only caught 20 years later, they shouldn't be sent back since, ya know, that was a really, really long time ago.

I don't know if you realize this, but there are statute of limitations on crimes. For example, here is the statute of limitations on rape in California:


CAL. PENAL CODE § 799
No limit for offenses punishable by death or life
imprisonment without parole
CAL. PENAL CODE § 800
For offenses punishable by imprisonment for
eight years or more, within six years after
commission of the offense
CAL. PENAL CODE § 801
For offenses punishable by imprisonment in state
prison, within three years after commission
of the offense
CAL. PENAL CODE § 801.1
(a) For the following offenses, if the victim was
under 18 at the time of commission of the
offense, anytime before victim’s 28
th
birthday:
• Rape (§ 261)
• Sodomy (§ 286)
• Lewd or lascivious acts involving
children (§ 288)
• Continuous sexual abuse of a child
(§ 288.5)
• Oral copulation (§ 288A


So yes, there are people who commit actual crimes and don't get charged because, ya know, it happened a really, really, really long time ago.

so now we're back to killing all brown people.

good progress.

 

Originally Posted by Niceguy

It's cheap to go to that card because of my race. But no of course I don't. Slavery is an abomination.

I fell into the signature dyzalot apples to oranges trap.

I thought everybody was white on the internet, no?

 

Originally Posted by slaps825

Plus I am curious why people in the northeast really care about illegal immigration...it's not like it really that big of a problem up there. So you can't get a job as a line chef? Big deal.

lol are you leveling? People who go the hospital in Texas and don't pay cost you money even if you live in Connecticut.

The hilarious thing, rubinh, is that you're now back to arguing, that it's bad because it's illegal, and also from an economic perspective. I'd bet closing the borders so that it's "impossible for illegals" to get in costs way more than the economic 'harm' of letting them in, whatever that is? Also, when did I say they come here and get citizenship and free shit? There's a difference between guest worker, perm resident, citizen, etc.

Also, you never answered with what you do with kids that are here illegally. Since you oppose the DREAM act (finish high school, 2 years of service = perm resident), then what do you do? Round them up and send them back to their respective countries? I wonder how much that costs in both real dollars to find/ship and lost productivity. And how dirty we should feel for doing it.

 

Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon

The hilarious thing, rubinh, is that you're now back to arguing for it from an economic perspective. I'd bet closing the borders so that it's "impossible for illegals" to get in costs way more than the economic 'harm' of letting them in, whatever that is? Also, when did I say they come here and get citizenship and free shit? There's a difference between guest worker, perm resident, citizen, etc.

Lol it's tough to have a single argument when I'm arguing with you, neeek, dyzalot who are all saying slightly different things. Some of you said stuff about having a completely open border because there aren't any property rights and where you're born is arbitrary and blah blah blah. The next point I'm going to make is very important. As it is, the United States is crumbling economically and cannot sustain its healthcare for much longer. Allowing people to come here at will will absolutely destroy the system we have in place.

 

Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon

Also, you never answered with what you do with kids that are here illegally. Since you oppose the DREAM act (finish high school, 2 years of service = perm resident), then what do you do? Round them up and send them back to their respective countries? I wonder how much that costs in both real dollars to find/ship and lost productivity. And how dirty we should feel for doing it.

I am against rewarding people who already committed a crime by coming here illegally instead of applying for citizenship like people from all across Europe and Asia do. I wouldn't do a mass deportation or anything, but on a case by case basis, I have absolutely no problem with it. The author in the OP who outed himself? I see no reason why he shouldn't be sent back to the Philippines. "He hasn't been there since he's 12" is not a good argument. As far as the future goes, after securing the border, which, once again, would actually be faaaaaar cheaper in the long run since right now we spend millions of dollars a year in Mexico fighting gangs, when we should instead just close our border and stop worrying about that, is to allow X number of people from each country (different per country based on various factors, obv) to become citizens every year. Say that number, for arguments sake, is 200,000 per yer from Mexico. So every year we let people apply and let that many people in. Obviously it would be people without criminal records and people who can work.

 

Originally Posted by slaps825

And you know what keeps those delicious strawberries you probably ate today at $1.99 a basket? Oh right, cheap migrant labor.

So what you're saying is you want people here, but they should be illegal so that we can pay them crap and they can't complain. So basically you want to use them.

My system would actually make immigrants 100% legal citizens, as they should be.

How do countries who are at war with each secure their borders? How does South Korea protect itself from North Korea?

Put fences up and don't let people through. Right now the fence is cut down at many points and nobody is guarding most of it. So basically as long as you're persistent you can get through. I was watching a documentary and the border patrol said they caught the same guy 12 times in one day. They never caught him a 13th so they just assumed he made it over. The fact that any person, including gang members, can get into the country is ridiculous.

I'm glad you enjoy your cheap strawberries though. I understand that Mexicans should be kept in a grey status so that they can be cheap labor. lol

 

Originally Posted by slaps825

I am just curious rubin how you propose to "fully secure" the borders...



No, no it doesn't. It doesn't stop people from coming here illegally.


Also, you said that illegals cost you money all the way up there in CT, but in no way considered any economic benefit they may provide you.

For the third time, any and all economic benefit I may get from illegal immigrants is due to the fact that they work at an artificially low wage. If "real" Americans are paid at least $7.25 an hour, why should these people make any less? Keeping them in a grey zone is good for your cheap labor, obv, but it's mindnumbingly retarded if you're arguing that these people should be EQUAL to other Americans. There shouldn't be this dumb middle ground where you use them for cheap shit.

 

Originally Posted by RUBINH

Lol it's tough to have a single argument when I'm arguing with you, neeek, dyzalot who are all saying slightly different things. Some of you said stuff about having a completely open border because there aren't any property rights and where you're born is arbitrary and blah blah blah. The next point I'm going to make is very important. As it is, the United States is crumbling economically and cannot sustain its healthcare for much longer. Allowing people to come here at will will absolutely destroy the system we have in place.

Again, who said we have to give people free things when they come here? Illegal immigrants already pay BILLIONS of dollars in taxes every year. Tell that to GE (paid less than $0 last year). If only we made it easier for people to trade their labor for a wage and legally pay taxes...

 

Originally Posted by RUBINH

I am against rewarding people who already committed a crime by coming here illegally instead of applying for citizenship like people from all across Europe and Asia do. I wouldn't do a mass deportation or anything, but on a case by case basis, I have absolutely no problem with it. The author in the OP who outed himself? I see no reason why he shouldn't be sent back to the Philippines. "He hasn't been there since he's 12" is not a good argument. As far as the future goes, after securing the border, which, once again, would actually be faaaaaar cheaper in the long run since right now we spend millions of dollars a year in Mexico fighting gangs, when we should instead just close our border and stop worrying about that, is to allow X number of people from each country (different per country based on various factors, obv) to become citizens every year. Say that number, for arguments sake, is 200,000 per yer from Mexico. So every year we let people apply and let that many people in. Obviously it would be people without criminal records and people who can work.

I love how you avoid saying you'd deport everyone, but on a "case by case basis" you'll ship people back. Just admit it, you'd send all of the kids back that the DREAM act would allow to stay here. You keep dancing around this question. So basically, you're saying you want to deport every child (never committed a crime -- it's hard to do that from a stroller) who's parents came here illegally, even if they are willing to finish their high school diploma and serve in the military in order to earn permanent resident status. Welcome to the fringe. Population you. Also, I'd love to know how we determine these country-by-country numbers. Sounds fun.

Have you checked the size difference between the border that South Korea has and the borders of the US? And look at Europe...how many countries do they have there and yet, you can travel freely across those borders.

What kind of barrier to you propose they build that is impenetrable? How much do you suppose they spend on building a thousand mile "Great Wall"? Even then, it is comical you think that will stop people who want to be here from getting here.