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Not only did they pick the wrong company. They picked the wrong industry. At least two other solar companies which received government financial support have declared bankruptcy recently, because of market conditions. In other words, even with government support these companies could not compete. In fact the entire industry in this country is not competitive.
Edited By: Willywoo Sep 14th, 2011 at 05:04 PM
This is the antithesis of how our markets should work. Like the corn ethanol boondoggle, which still has bipartisan support, this kind of attempted manipulation of markets is simply wrong and will not work in the long run.
The selection process in this case was clearly driven by politics, not rational business decision making. Rather than look at and rationally respond to the problems with the market and the reasons why we are not competitive, we simply throw money at what looks on the surface to be a great idea. Why can China produce solar panels so much cheaper that we can.
This is the standard political response along with regulation to any issue. If we like it, spend money on it. If we don't like it, regulate it.
This specific problem has scandal written all over over it. Let's see if anything comes of it.
"Newly uncovered emails show the White House closely monitored Energy Department deliberations over whether to make a $535 million taxpayer-backed loan to Solyndra, a politically-connected solar energy firm that went bankrupt and now is the focus of a criminal investigation.
With Obama about to take a trip where he might be able to announce the loan in March 2009, top White House officials were pressing for a quick answer."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-ce..._b_961137.html -
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Edited By: Dyzalot Sep 14th, 2011 at 03:44 PMhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...bQK_story.htmlThe e-mails also raise questions about whether the administration should have foreseen financial trouble. In August 2009, e-mail exchanges between Energy Department staff members pointed out that a credit-rating agency predicted that the project would run out of cash in September 2011. Solyndra shut its doors on the final day of August.
This is going to be a story all the way through the election. -
Posts: 8,574
Joined: Aug 07Sep 14th, 2011 (9/14/2011 3:45pm) in reply to Dyzalot
What does the credit rating agency know that the government doesn't!? Shake it off and send that company it's half billion!Originally Posted by Dyzalot
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...bQK_story.html
This is going to be a story all the way through the election. -
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It's the gov. subsidies that make these companies inefficient and noncompetitive. Free money gets spent unwisely and most ends up in management pockets. I bet if you look at t he paychecks of the CEO's of these companies you will see coinciding salary bumps. Gov. needs to let the free market work and stay the F outta everything. Solar will come around when the free market decides its become economical.
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every other developed govt subsidizes solar and renewables in general.
you think oil/gas/coal havent been subsidized for the last 50 years? i guess its reasonable to expect solar to be able to compete without it.
the fact that solar has been politicized is really disheartening but i guess not surprising -
Originally Posted by NUTZREALHUGE
every other developed govt subsidizes solar and renewables in general.
you think oil/gas/coal havent been subsidized for the last 50 years? i guess its reasonable to expect solar to be able to compete without it.
the fact that solar has been politicized is really disheartening but i guess not surprisingyeah, I lol at the single-minded folks whining about subsidies for solar and don't understand how the oil industry has been "favored" for so long in the US.Originally Posted by Dyzalot
Everything that gets subsidized gets politicized so its not surprising.
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Increasing subsidies isn't the answer though. We should let them all operate in a neutral, free market and let competition decide the winners.
yeah, I lol at the single-minded folks whining about subsidies for solar and don't understand how the oil industry has been "favored" for so long in the US. -
Edited By: EyeKnows Sep 14th, 2011 at 05:33 PMideally.Originally Posted by Dyzalot
Increasing subsidies isn't the answer though. We should let them all operate in a neutral, free market and let competition decide the winners.
but is the market really "free" when many nations are throwing money at solar/less non-renewable energy? does the US just toss in the towel and buy a license for these technologies later like we did with transistors? -
Niceguy
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Edited By: Willywoo Sep 14th, 2011 at 05:42 PMI lol at single minded folks who don't understand there are many people who are against subsidies and guarantees in general, whether its for farmers and corn, oil, home loans, students or green energy. We may have already been energy independent without oil industry subsidies. Another big government gaff. imo Thus main point of this thread that it is not a good idea to have government pick winners and losers.Originally Posted by EyeKnows
yeah, I lol at the single-minded folks whining about subsidies for solar and don't understand how the oil industry has been "favored" for so long in the US.
In this case it's even worse since the White House seems to have pushed for the loan to this company because of a scheduled political visit and more so because the company's largest investor is a apparently a frequent visitor to the White House and large Obama and Democrat donor, George Kaiser. Nothing like transparency in the White House is there? -
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As Willy said, if we hadn't been subsidizing fossil fuels we might have already developed cold fusion or some other "green" technology. And yes, if it is cheaper to buy the technology than to develop it then why not just buy it and put your productive capacity towards making something you can sell to afford to buy it? Comparative advantage and all...Originally Posted by EyeKnows
ideally.
but is the market really "free" when many nations are throwing money at solar/less non-renewable energy? does the US just toss in the towel and buy a license for these technologies later like we did with transistors? -
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i agree that hte solyndra thing is terrible and that criminal charges should be coming against its upper management, but its just so stupid and shitty to lump the entire solar industry in with them...there are american manufacturers of solar panels that are doing fine without direct government investment. Not to mention every installer is using local labor.
I just cant understand the vehement opposition to solar. Why is it a terrible thing to turn power consumers (homes, offices, schools etc) into power producers? Is it a terrible thing to increase our energy security? Would less rolling blackouts be bad? Is it bad to employ american workers to install the panels? i just dont get it. -
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Joined: May 05Sep 14th, 2011 (9/14/2011 6:09pm) in reply to NUTZREALHUGE
Who's against solar? Hell, my high school had a solar heated pool way back in the '80's. Solar is fine, subsidies are not.
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Edited By: EyeKnows Sep 14th, 2011 at 06:25 PMme too.Originally Posted by Willywoo
I lol at single minded folks who don't understand there are many people who are against subsidies and guarantees in general, whether its for farmers and corn, oil, home loans, students or green energy.
agreed. (hard to put the subsidy-genie back in the bottle though.)Originally Posted by Dyzalot
As Willy said, if we hadn't been subsidizing fossil fuels we might have already developed cold fusion or some other "green" technology.
that worked well for the US radio/tv/electronics industry in the 60s and 70s.Originally Posted by Dyzalot
And yes, if it is cheaper to buy the technology than to develop it then why not just buy it and put your productive capacity towards making something you can sell to afford to buy it? Comparative advantage and all...
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Edited By: Dyzalot Sep 14th, 2011 at 06:27 PMWe shouldn't be worried about protecting certain industries. If another country can do something cheaper than us then we are better off doing what we can do cheaper than them and trade.that worked well for the US radio/tv/electronics industry in the 60s and
70s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage -
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Joined: Sep 07Sep 14th, 2011 (9/14/2011 6:56pm) in reply to Dyzalot
ban electricity, create jobs for candlemakers
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Joined: May 05Sep 14th, 2011 (9/14/2011 6:59pm) in reply to norcaljeff
100% draft = full employmentOriginally Posted by norcaljeff
ban electricity, create jobs for candlemakers
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Edited By: EyeKnows Sep 14th, 2011 at 07:09 PMI was gonna break a window.Originally Posted by norcaljeff
ban electricity, create jobs for candlemakers
my solution is a people solution, not a gov't solution. -
Posts: 19,756
Joined: Jan 06Sep 14th, 2011 (9/14/2011 7:43pm) in reply to NUTZREALHUGE
I'm not against solar energy. If the market were allowed to work, the industry might even figure out how to produce it efficiently. I'm against the government picking individual companies and particular industries to shower with financial support because it is a political event; it harms those who do not get the aid; it manipulates the market causing it to be inefficient.Originally Posted by NUTZREALHUGE
i agree that hte solyndra thing is terrible and that criminal charges should be coming against its upper management, but its just so stupid and shitty to lump the entire solar industry in with them...there are american manufacturers of solar panels that are doing fine without direct government investment. Not to mention every installer is using local labor.
I just cant understand the vehement opposition to solar. Why is it a terrible thing to turn power consumers (homes, offices, schools etc) into power producers? Is it a terrible thing to increase our energy security? Would less rolling blackouts be bad? Is it bad to employ american workers to install the panels? i just dont get it.
In this instance, assuming everything would have worked out okay and Solyndra would be out there producing solar panels for your company to install, it would hardly be fair to all of the other manufacturers of panels who did not get the same favorable treatment. You might benefit in the short term because they can make their product more cheaply than their competitors and therefore give you a better price, but in the long term it reduces competition by undercutting their competitors. All because Obama (or whoever happens to be in the White House) is friends with George Kaiser (or the the person who benefits from the aid).
It's a sick way to do economic and energy planning. -
Posts: 20,368
Joined: May 05Sep 14th, 2011 (9/14/2011 8:05pm) in reply to EyeKnows
Why complain when foreign governments wish to give us free money?Originally Posted by EyeKnows
ideally.
but is the market really "free" when many nations are throwing money at solar/less non-renewable energy? does the US just toss in the towel and buy a license for these technologies later like we did with transistors? -
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Jon Stewart just having a field day with this topic tonight. Why I love his show, he will go after the Democrats as well, even if he does tend to spend more time showing the hypocrisy of the right.
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Joined: Jan 06Sep 16th, 2011 (9/16/2011 5:13am) in reply to Dyzalot
Originally Posted by Dyzalot
Jon Stewart just having a field day with this topic tonight. Why I love his show, he will go after the Democrats as well, even if he does tend to spend more time showing the hypocrisy of the right.
Holy lord that was about as harsh a thing as I've ever seen him do, attacking left or right. And this may not even end up being the biggest scandal for Obama this week with the whole pressuring a 4 star general to alter his testimony to benefit an Obama donor.
Video of Stewart below:
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jon-stewa...yndra-scandal/ -
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Joined: May 07Sep 16th, 2011 (9/16/2011 5:56am) in reply to winwin07
^^^ Lol that was good
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good god just caught that vid of stewart
he waylaid the frak out of obama/biden/everyone involved -
Posts: 22,109
Joined: Nov 06Sep 17th, 2011 (9/17/2011 7:54am) in reply to Willywoo
Edited By: resilient Sep 17th, 2011 at 07:56 AMquoted for greatness. fuck government facilitators... my god you are all such retarded sheep.Originally Posted by Willywoo
Not only did they pick the wrong company. They picked the wrong industry. At least two other solar companies which received government financial support have declared bankruptcy recently, because of market conditions. In other words, even with government support these companies could not compete. In fact the entire industry in this country is not competitive.
This is the antithesis of how our markets should work. Like the corn ethanol boondoggle, which still has bipartisan support, this kind of attempted manipulation of markets is simply wrong and will not work in the long run.
The selection process in this case was clearly driven by politics, not rational business decision making. Rather than look at and rationally respond to the problems with the market and the reasons why we are not competitive, we simply throw money at what looks on the surface to be a great idea. Why can China produce solar panels so much cheaper that we can.
This is the standard political response along with regulation to any issue. If we like it, spend money on it. If we don't like it, regulate it.
This specific problem has scandal written all over over it. Let's see if anything comes of it.
"Newly uncovered emails show the White House closely monitored Energy Department deliberations over whether to make a $535 million taxpayer-backed loan to Solyndra, a politically-connected solar energy firm that went bankrupt and now is the focus of a criminal investigation.
With Obama about to take a trip where he might be able to announce the loan in March 2009, top White House officials were pressing for a quick answer."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-ce..._b_961137.html
Do you understand why we are negative about large programs under government control? Because they are inefficient... not solely because of the current administration... governmental control is inefficient period. -
Posts: 430
Joined: Oct 10Sep 17th, 2011 (9/17/2011 8:36am) in reply to StlngMyChps
Originally Posted by StlngMyChps
It's the gov. subsidies that make these companies inefficient and noncompetitive. Free money gets spent unwisely and most ends up in management pockets. I bet if you look at t he paychecks of the CEO's of these companies you will see coinciding salary bumps. Gov. needs to let the free market work and stay the F outta everything. Solar will come around when the free market decides its become economical.
your right but dem's dont think that way -
Posts: 42,316
Joined: Sep 07Sep 17th, 2011 (9/17/2011 9:07am) in reply to linds3236
picsgaddammittttt!!!!Originally Posted by linds3236
your right but dem's dont think that way
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