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  1. Not only did they pick the wrong company. They picked the wrong industry. At least two other solar companies which received government financial support have declared bankruptcy recently, because of market conditions. In other words, even with government support these companies could not compete. In fact the entire industry in this country is not competitive.

    This is the antithesis of how our markets should work. Like the corn ethanol boondoggle, which still has bipartisan support, this kind of attempted manipulation of markets is simply wrong and will not work in the long run.

    The selection process in this case was clearly driven by politics, not rational business decision making. Rather than look at and rationally respond to the problems with the market and the reasons why we are not competitive, we simply throw money at what looks on the surface to be a great idea. Why can China produce solar panels so much cheaper that we can.

    This is the standard political response along with regulation to any issue. If we like it, spend money on it. If we don't like it, regulate it.

    This specific problem has scandal written all over over it. Let's see if anything comes of it.

    "Newly uncovered emails show the White House closely monitored Energy Department deliberations over whether to make a $535 million taxpayer-backed loan to Solyndra, a politically-connected solar energy firm that went bankrupt and now is the focus of a criminal investigation.
    With Obama about to take a trip where he might be able to announce the loan in March 2009, top White House officials were pressing for a quick answer."

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-ce..._b_961137.html
    Edited By: Willywoo Sep 14th, 2011 at 06:04 PM
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  2.  

    The e-mails also raise questions about whether the administration should have foreseen financial trouble. In August 2009, e-mail exchanges between Energy Department staff members pointed out that a credit-rating agency predicted that the project would run out of cash in September 2011. Solyndra shut its doors on the final day of August.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...bQK_story.html

    This is going to be a story all the way through the election.
    Edited By: Dyzalot Sep 14th, 2011 at 04:44 PM
     3
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  3.  
    Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...bQK_story.html

    This is going to be a story all the way through the election.

    What does the credit rating agency know that the government doesn't!? Shake it off and send that company it's half billion!
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  4. China rapes US. We need to bring slave labor back
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  5. in before deletion on copyright grounds
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  6. It's the gov. subsidies that make these companies inefficient and noncompetitive. Free money gets spent unwisely and most ends up in management pockets. I bet if you look at t he paychecks of the CEO's of these companies you will see coinciding salary bumps. Gov. needs to let the free market work and stay the F outta everything. Solar will come around when the free market decides its become economical.
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  7. every other developed govt subsidizes solar and renewables in general.

    you think oil/gas/coal havent been subsidized for the last 50 years? i guess its reasonable to expect solar to be able to compete without it.

    the fact that solar has been politicized is really disheartening but i guess not surprising
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  8. Everything that gets subsidized gets politicized so its not surprising.
     3
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  9.  
    Originally Posted by NUTZREALHUGE View Post

    every other developed govt subsidizes solar and renewables in general.

    you think oil/gas/coal havent been subsidized for the last 50 years? i guess its reasonable to expect solar to be able to compete without it.

    the fact that solar has been politicized is really disheartening but i guess not surprising

     
    Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post

    Everything that gets subsidized gets politicized so its not surprising.

    yeah, I lol at the single-minded folks whining about subsidies for solar and don't understand how the oil industry has been "favored" for so long in the US.

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  10.  


    yeah, I lol at the single-minded folks whining about subsidies for solar and don't understand how the oil industry has been "favored" for so long in the US.

    Increasing subsidies isn't the answer though. We should let them all operate in a neutral, free market and let competition decide the winners.
     3
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  11.  
    Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post

    Increasing subsidies isn't the answer though. We should let them all operate in a neutral, free market and let competition decide the winners.

    ideally.

    but is the market really "free" when many nations are throwing money at solar/less non-renewable energy? does the US just toss in the towel and buy a license for these technologies later like we did with transistors?
    Edited By: EyeKnows Sep 14th, 2011 at 06:33 PM
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  12. Add Niceguy to Rail
  13.  
    Originally Posted by EyeKnows View Post

    yeah, I lol at the single-minded folks whining about subsidies for solar and don't understand how the oil industry has been "favored" for so long in the US.

    I lol at single minded folks who don't understand there are many people who are against subsidies and guarantees in general, whether its for farmers and corn, oil, home loans, students or green energy. We may have already been energy independent without oil industry subsidies. Another big government gaff. imo Thus main point of this thread that it is not a good idea to have government pick winners and losers.

    In this case it's even worse since the White House seems to have pushed for the loan to this company because of a scheduled political visit and more so because the company's largest investor is a apparently a frequent visitor to the White House and large Obama and Democrat donor, George Kaiser. Nothing like transparency in the White House is there?
    Edited By: Willywoo Sep 14th, 2011 at 06:42 PM
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  14.  
    Originally Posted by EyeKnows View Post

    ideally.

    but is the market really "free" when many nations are throwing money at solar/less non-renewable energy? does the US just toss in the towel and buy a license for these technologies later like we did with transistors?

    As Willy said, if we hadn't been subsidizing fossil fuels we might have already developed cold fusion or some other "green" technology. And yes, if it is cheaper to buy the technology than to develop it then why not just buy it and put your productive capacity towards making something you can sell to afford to buy it? Comparative advantage and all...
     3
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  15. i agree that hte solyndra thing is terrible and that criminal charges should be coming against its upper management, but its just so stupid and shitty to lump the entire solar industry in with them...there are american manufacturers of solar panels that are doing fine without direct government investment. Not to mention every installer is using local labor.

    I just cant understand the vehement opposition to solar. Why is it a terrible thing to turn power consumers (homes, offices, schools etc) into power producers? Is it a terrible thing to increase our energy security? Would less rolling blackouts be bad? Is it bad to employ american workers to install the panels? i just dont get it.
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  16. Who's against solar? Hell, my high school had a solar heated pool way back in the '80's. Solar is fine, subsidies are not.
     3
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  17.  
    Originally Posted by Willywoo View Post

    I lol at single minded folks who don't understand there are many people who are against subsidies and guarantees in general, whether its for farmers and corn, oil, home loans, students or green energy.

    me too.

     
    Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post

    As Willy said, if we hadn't been subsidizing fossil fuels we might have already developed cold fusion or some other "green" technology.

    agreed. (hard to put the subsidy-genie back in the bottle though.)

     
    Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post

    And yes, if it is cheaper to buy the technology than to develop it then why not just buy it and put your productive capacity towards making something you can sell to afford to buy it? Comparative advantage and all...

    that worked well for the US radio/tv/electronics industry in the 60s and 70s.
    Edited By: EyeKnows Sep 14th, 2011 at 07:25 PM
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  18.  

    that worked well for the US radio/tv/electronics industry in the 60s and
    70s.

    We shouldn't be worried about protecting certain industries. If another country can do something cheaper than us then we are better off doing what we can do cheaper than them and trade.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage
    Edited By: Dyzalot Sep 14th, 2011 at 07:27 PM
     3
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  19. ban electricity, create jobs for candlemakers
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  20.  
    Originally Posted by norcaljeff View Post

    ban electricity, create jobs for candlemakers

    100% draft = full employment
     3
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  21.  
    Originally Posted by norcaljeff View Post

    ban electricity, create jobs for candlemakers

    I was gonna break a window.

    my solution is a people solution, not a gov't solution.
    Edited By: EyeKnows Sep 14th, 2011 at 08:09 PM
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  22.  
    Originally Posted by NUTZREALHUGE View Post

    i agree that hte solyndra thing is terrible and that criminal charges should be coming against its upper management, but its just so stupid and shitty to lump the entire solar industry in with them...there are american manufacturers of solar panels that are doing fine without direct government investment. Not to mention every installer is using local labor.

    I just cant understand the vehement opposition to solar. Why is it a terrible thing to turn power consumers (homes, offices, schools etc) into power producers? Is it a terrible thing to increase our energy security? Would less rolling blackouts be bad? Is it bad to employ american workers to install the panels? i just dont get it.

    I'm not against solar energy. If the market were allowed to work, the industry might even figure out how to produce it efficiently. I'm against the government picking individual companies and particular industries to shower with financial support because it is a political event; it harms those who do not get the aid; it manipulates the market causing it to be inefficient.

    In this instance, assuming everything would have worked out okay and Solyndra would be out there producing solar panels for your company to install, it would hardly be fair to all of the other manufacturers of panels who did not get the same favorable treatment. You might benefit in the short term because they can make their product more cheaply than their competitors and therefore give you a better price, but in the long term it reduces competition by undercutting their competitors. All because Obama (or whoever happens to be in the White House) is friends with George Kaiser (or the the person who benefits from the aid).

    It's a sick way to do economic and energy planning.
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  23.  
    Originally Posted by EyeKnows View Post

    ideally.

    but is the market really "free" when many nations are throwing money at solar/less non-renewable energy? does the US just toss in the towel and buy a license for these technologies later like we did with transistors?

    Why complain when foreign governments wish to give us free money?
     3
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  24. Jon Stewart just having a field day with this topic tonight. Why I love his show, he will go after the Democrats as well, even if he does tend to spend more time showing the hypocrisy of the right.
     3
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  25.  
    Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post

    Jon Stewart just having a field day with this topic tonight. Why I love his show, he will go after the Democrats as well, even if he does tend to spend more time showing the hypocrisy of the right.


    Holy lord that was about as harsh a thing as I've ever seen him do, attacking left or right. And this may not even end up being the biggest scandal for Obama this week with the whole pressuring a 4 star general to alter his testimony to benefit an Obama donor.

    Video of Stewart below:

    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jon-stewa...yndra-scandal/
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  26. ^^^ Lol that was good
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  27. good god just caught that vid of stewart

    he waylaid the frak out of obama/biden/everyone involved
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  28.  
    Originally Posted by Willywoo View Post

    Not only did they pick the wrong company. They picked the wrong industry. At least two other solar companies which received government financial support have declared bankruptcy recently, because of market conditions. In other words, even with government support these companies could not compete. In fact the entire industry in this country is not competitive.

    This is the antithesis of how our markets should work. Like the corn ethanol boondoggle, which still has bipartisan support, this kind of attempted manipulation of markets is simply wrong and will not work in the long run.

    The selection process in this case was clearly driven by politics, not rational business decision making. Rather than look at and rationally respond to the problems with the market and the reasons why we are not competitive, we simply throw money at what looks on the surface to be a great idea. Why can China produce solar panels so much cheaper that we can.

    This is the standard political response along with regulation to any issue. If we like it, spend money on it. If we don't like it, regulate it.

    This specific problem has scandal written all over over it. Let's see if anything comes of it.

    "Newly uncovered emails show the White House closely monitored Energy Department deliberations over whether to make a $535 million taxpayer-backed loan to Solyndra, a politically-connected solar energy firm that went bankrupt and now is the focus of a criminal investigation.
    With Obama about to take a trip where he might be able to announce the loan in March 2009, top White House officials were pressing for a quick answer."

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-ce..._b_961137.html

    quoted for greatness. fuck government facilitators... my god you are all such retarded sheep.

    Do you understand why we are negative about large programs under government control? Because they are inefficient... not solely because of the current administration... governmental control is inefficient period.
    Edited By: resilient Sep 17th, 2011 at 08:56 AM
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  29.  
    Originally Posted by StlngMyChps View Post

    It's the gov. subsidies that make these companies inefficient and noncompetitive. Free money gets spent unwisely and most ends up in management pockets. I bet if you look at t he paychecks of the CEO's of these companies you will see coinciding salary bumps. Gov. needs to let the free market work and stay the F outta everything. Solar will come around when the free market decides its become economical.


    your right but dem's dont think that way
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  30.  
    Originally Posted by linds3236 View Post

    your right but dem's dont think that way

    picsgaddammittttt!!!!
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