I am a little short stacked with 320 or so in front of me, I am in the big blind and UTG straddles to 10.

UTG - Straddle to 10 (over 1g back)
UTG +2 Call (130 back, no reads)
5 callers
HERO BB, AK off - Raises to 65
UTG - Reraise to 165
UTG 2 - Calls off stack ofter limping in
HERO -????

any reads on either player?

Do you have any reads on this guy? Is he young, old, agressive, tight, etc?? Is he capable of making a play on you with less than QQ or AK?

My experiences with this spot and with no reads in 5-10 and 5-10-20 live games are that 75% of the time he will show up with KK or AA. The other 25% of the time he will have QQ, AK, and very rarely will be spazzing out. I would lean towards folding here, even though it could be considered exploitable to another thinking player...

Shoving here is not an option IMO. Not in a cash game. It makes no sense to risk so much on 1.5 to 1 pot odds when your best case is a coin flip and your worst case is domination. Calling gets 3.6 to 1 pot odds but you can't continue if you miss the flop (not enough behind you to be secure in bluffing), and it's 8 to 1 against flopping an A or a K. So calling isn't an option either. Forget implied odds since you're only slightly better than a coin flip even if you do hit your pair.

So fold.

After some of the crazy/stupid shit I've been seeing lately in cash, and so many people are talking about folding here? Don't get me wrong UGT2 might have a monster but still might easily have lower pair, UTG I'd think you have a good chance of flipping. Pot odds by now are good I'd take a shot and be prepared to reload.

Winning in cash game poker is all about getting the best of it. Not getting the even of it. The best you can hope for by shoving in this situation is you get 1.5 to 1 odds on an even money proposition. Forget fold equity, you don't have enough behind you to even make them stop and think, let alone fold. After factoring in the very real chance of being a monster dog if you get shown AA or KK then 1.5 to 1 is not getting the best of it. I don't think it's even getting the even of it.

SnapShove

very easily could have KQ suited AJsuited AQ ....Thinking that they arent gonna give me credit for a hand on a backraise straddle and I dont know about you but when i see AQ on my straddle I think its like AA with no straddle. well maybe not that good but still like "Yes, they arent gonna believe me". ummmm yeah but anyways cuz lets think here lets say that UTG2 folded...were you ever folding AK to a tilty backraising straddler after you already put 70 in the pot with 230 behind. Just looks like a move to me

yeah i mean, its all math, based on effective stack sizes, and the amount of BB's in the pot in relation to your stack, anything other than shoving or raising with the intentions of getting all in is bad imo... If the straddle woke up w/ KK+ thats just unfortunate but we aren't deep enough to consider getting away from an A and a K here.

And while i do agree AK plays way differently in a cash game, this is not the case here, with about 5x PSB left in our stack when action gets to us, and we are EXTREMELY likely to have the best hand, I don't see any value in turning our hand into a bluff and folding to the straddle reraise. When 100-200bb yeah it can be bad to go broke w/ AK but this pretty trivial, and any other line of thinking based on paranoia of running into KK+ every time is just irrational and being results oriented.

Wow...can't believe that i missed that you had 320 behind...for some reason I thought you had 1.3k back...I take back what I said...

If you did for some reason have 1.3k back, I would stick with my original statement...fold

 

Originally Posted by MarkH

Based on that he needs at least 3 to 1 pot odds just to break even in the long run. If you factor in the possibility of losing part of the pot to the shorter stack he's going to need even better than that to break even. How much better he needs to be is irrelevant because the best he can get for his all in is 1.5 to 1.

Fold.

This is a cash game, not a tournament. The long run matters above all else.

Not even close to correct. I'm not going to range the short stack and work out the full math, but the only play here is to call.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 34.955% 34.64% 00.32% 128106564 1177506.00 { AKo }
Hand 1: 65.045% 64.73% 00.32% 239396088 1177506.00 { JJ+ }

 

Originally Posted by nuttedup

I must be missing something here with all the people saying we should be folding. We have AK and 32xbb and some guy 3bets us from his straddle and a shorty calls off 13xbb. This is one of the easiest shoves ever.

this

Uhhhh yeah the only reason you should ever have like $300 in a 2/5 game, especially when people are straddling is to get your stack in with perfect spots like this

Also with like $70 in the pot and 5 callers when it gets to you, I would raise to more than $65 to either a) take it down pre or b) have a reasonable flop shove stack in the event that you do get a caller or two

 

Originally Posted by tyson219

Not even close to correct. I'm not going to range the short stack and work out the full math, but the only play here is to call.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 34.955% 34.64% 00.32% 128106564 1177506.00 { AKo }
Hand 1: 65.045% 64.73% 00.32% 239396088 1177506.00 { JJ+ }

Lol. Not many card rooms allow hand calculators at the table so I'll stick with my rough estimation and fold that hand.

And I think I can understand how you would conclude that a call is appropriate given the AK is slightly less than a 2 to 1 dog to win and pot odds for the call are 3.8 to 1. Unfortunately I still disagree with it. Given the scenario I don't think AK can count on seeing the turn without putting the rest of his stack in the pot. Which means we're back to only getting 1.5 to 1 pot odds with slightly less than 2 to 1 odds against winning.

 

Originally Posted by vandy525

I know that long run folding was probably bad because of how much I already committed. I felt against an extremely soft table there were better places for me to stick it in, for what its worth

This is a cash game correct? You should never fold a +EV spot. If you did it because the game is soft and you don't have more money it clearly means you aren't bringing enough money to the game. You need to have extra buyins so you don't end up talking yourself into folding clear +EV spots like this. Its a mortal sin in cash games and you are costing yourself a lot of money making these folds.

 

Originally Posted by vandy525

I guess an even bigger question then, should you fold when you KNOW you are dominated even if you have too much in the pot?

If you are getting the proper odds is all that matters in an all in situation like this. If you have to call a penny to win a million dollars you snap call with any two cards even after your opponent flashes AA.

I watch a lot of players reload time and time again because they can't fold AK when the action is screaming that they're crushed. I agree that math wise, this is a call all day long, however there is a time and a place to lay it down so if you have the read it's hard to fault you... I call quite often here but given the information I don't have an issue with folding....