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Exposed Card Ruling

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  1. unemployable unemployable is offline

    Los Angeles, CA
    United States

    Posts: 493
    Joined: Mar 11

    Feb 7th, 2012 (2/7/2012 7:09am)

    This is more of a general question even though this happened to me in the past.

    I've played a lot of live poker and anytime a card is exposed it is turned face up and everyone gets to see it. I however believe there should be exceptions to this and maybe there are and I just don't know.

    In my case I bet the turn first to act in a 3way pot on the turn. I'm in the 1 seat i think and next to act is on my direct left. He folds and when he does his cards do a somersault and land face down on the table such that it's obvious that I and maybe the dealer saw the cards but absolutely no way the 3rd player who was in like the 5 seat saw them. Now before the dealer exposes them I start to protest and say he shouldn't be able to see the cards until after he acts.

    My reasons are:
    I acted before the cards were exposed so knowing doesn't give me any advantage.
    The 3rd guy has yet to act on my bet so making 2 unknown cards now known gives him a significant advantage in his decision on how to proceed right now.
    I wholeheartedly agree that as soon as he acts he should be shown the exposed cards. However, giving one player an advantage over another by showing exposed cards in between action is the exact opposite reason that the rule is in place to begin with.

    I don't think I was eloquent enough at the table when this happened because no one saw my point. This actually happened some some time back but I every now and again see similar situations where I think a player should have to act before they are shown the exposed cards since no other player had that information when they acted.

    Am I way off base here or right on the nose? Is there a rule in place that pertains to situations like this?
  2. iamthedeck ftw iamthedeck ftw is offline

    Windsor
    Canada

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    Feb 7th, 2012 (2/7/2012 8:00am) in reply to unemployable

    Your reasons are valid but the floor and dealer won't care or understand from my experiences and will expose the cards before any more action. I mean, you've seen the cards and maybe a player had intended to raise and depending on what cards you saw it could change his action. It's more unfair for him to see before he acts in general but still doubt the floor considers this. When players act out of turn or expose cards in big pots I get sftilted words cannot describe.
     
  3. kcd0g kcd0g is offline

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    Feb 7th, 2012 (2/7/2012 10:02am) in reply to iamthedeck ftw

    I think the dealer has to show the card to Player 3, your knowledge of the exposed card could influence the action in the next round. For example if you saw Player 2 fold an Ace, and an Ace came on the river, this knowledge could give you an unfair advantage as to what decision you might make depending on how the action unfolds. It could help you pick off a bluff or make a bet/call you may not have made without this information.
  4. unemployable unemployable is offline

    Los Angeles, CA
    United States

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    Feb 7th, 2012 (2/7/2012 10:39am) in reply to kcd0g

     
    Originally Posted by kcd0g View Post

    I think the dealer has to show the card to Player 3, your knowledge of the exposed card could influence the action in the next round. For example if you saw Player 2 fold an Ace, and an Ace came on the river, this knowledge could give you an unfair advantage as to what decision you might make depending on how the action unfolds. It could help you pick off a bluff or make a bet/call you may not have made without this information.

    this is invalid to what i'm saying.

    obviously show him the card right after he acts. if you show him the cards before he acts he has added information that i didn't have. let him act and no matter what he does show him the cards then. i didn't know what player 2 had before i bet, why does player 3 get to know his cards before he calls/raises/folds? the fact that i know the cards now doesn't matter because its not my turn.

    am i explaining it wrong? does anyone understand?
    Thread Starter
  5. MattAKA MattAKA is offline

    Drysdale
    Australia

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    Feb 7th, 2012 (2/7/2012 11:04am) in reply to unemployable

    i think your right. everyones gets shown straight after his action makes sense.
  6. kcd0g kcd0g is offline

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    Feb 7th, 2012 (2/7/2012 3:14pm) in reply to unemployable

     
    Originally Posted by unemployable View Post

    this is invalid to what i'm saying.

    obviously show him the card right after he acts. if you show him the cards before he acts he has added information that i didn't have. let him act and no matter what he does show him the cards then. i didn't know what player 2 had before i bet, why does player 3 get to know his cards before he calls/raises/folds? the fact that i know the cards now doesn't matter because its not my turn.
    am i explaining it wrong? does anyone understand?

    OK now I see what you're saying and yeah, your point makes perfect sense. I'm gonna go play in a few hours, think I'll inquire with the floor mgr and a couple of dealers about it. IDK dont think I've ever seen it ruled that way but it should be.
    Edited By: kcd0g Feb 7th, 2012 at 03:16 PM
  7. hoosier418 hoosier418 is offline

    Huntington, IN
    United States

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    Feb 7th, 2012 (2/7/2012 3:35pm) in reply to kcd0g

    Ive always seen the cards shown to everyone as soon as they were exposed. But your expanation makes perfect sense and I wonder why it hasnt been done that way.
  8. double_kyan double_kyan is offline

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    Feb 7th, 2012 (2/7/2012 8:21pm) in reply to hoosier418

     
    Originally Posted by hoosier418 View Post

    Ive always seen the cards shown to everyone as soon as they were exposed. But your expanation makes perfect sense and I wonder why it hasnt been done that way.

    because they dont always do a somersault facing the dealer,here's the real deal though ,if the dealer feels they were seen by anybody he has to turn them up,imagine the fact that you now get to give villian tells that advantage you because you seen what could have been valuable knowledge,therefore imo it is imperative to show 1 show all right than and there[not save the show for later action]
     1
  9. doc793 doc793 is offline

    Clio, MI
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    Feb 8th, 2012 (2/8/2012 1:37am) in reply to double_kyan

    From a complete fairness sense you are probably right here but there are way too many scenerios where someone could see and someone not. Keeping rules simple when possible are the best way to go and this rule makes it easy to implement. Position has its advantages and this is one of them.
     
  10. jppp5039 jppp5039 is online now

    Pottstown, PA
    United States

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    Feb 8th, 2012 (2/8/2012 2:49am) in reply to doc793

     
    Originally Posted by doc793 View Post

    From a complete fairness sense you are probably right here but there are way too many scenerios where someone could see and someone not. Keeping rules simple when possible are the best way to go and this rule makes it easy to implement. Position has its advantages and this is one of them.

    +1. In a perfect world you would be right, but too many variables. Simple ruling makes sense
     
  11. unemployable unemployable is offline

    Los Angeles, CA
    United States

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    Feb 8th, 2012 (2/8/2012 3:34am) in reply to jppp5039

    Believe me I understand. I just see so many times where exposed cards end up giving someone a significant advantage. I came to the conclusion (in my head ofc) that exposed cards shouldn't be shown to the entire table until whatever betting round the players are on is over. And if your not paying attention you don't get the free information until you have acted.

    Example: a player in the big blind has 22. Someone in EP makes a raise and a few callers, the sb mucks and a deuce is exposed. If you were paying attention and could see it you get the added info. However if you weren't watching, why do we need to stop you before you act and say "Hey, this deuce was exposed now what do you want to do?"

    Overall I understand the rule. Its just one of those live rules I don't fully agree with.

    And yes I get that it becomes complicated when more than one player is left to act. But what can you do, if I was a dealer tho I would make them act first unless the floor over rules me obv.

    Just thought this might make for an interesting discussion, thanks for the responses.
    Thread Starter
  12. yarbles yarbles is offline

    Montreal
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    Feb 8th, 2012 (2/8/2012 6:54am) in reply to unemployable

    player is going to grab chips and somehow flips her hand flat both face up and one player sees her hand but she turns them over and still calls and that player calls as well..... ummmmmm wtf anyway the dealer let her play out letting player b play his hand as well knowing what her cards are.
    439 
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