1. Ok i played in a 10k gtd live event ,and when the ft startd,they wanted too chop (880 ea.and i'm 2nd CL) i said lets play ,nuff said.I have $60 invested in this, i am clearly the best player, i know it! they know it! i feel their fear! i have reads on all players and we're down too 6 players now, i'm not chopping, i want the $2800+ 1st if not at least 2k, i have 1 solid player on my left,(180k) loud white guy in 40's capable of raising and playn any two. On my right- seat5(80k), is a super nit biker dude. Seat4(375k) is the CL-a weak fish player- a former punker dude in his 40's real ez too read and play the boards against . Seat3(120k) is psycho loco mexican guy calls any amount and limps a lot,station type, but clearly seems nervous at the FT.Seat1(140k)- the tight ABC player - mexican cat in his 20's , i would be shocked if he ever bluffed 1 time during the day.Seat2(90k) - is passive old school italian cat- defends every blind (except against me).Too appease the curious i'm the 41 year old German American white dude ready too steamroll this field.

    I am the most aggressive and i am doing my thing each orbit , any hands of mine seen are solid or i got it , bb 8k-16k ante 3k,with 10 minutes till 10k-20k 4k. I am 2nd CL with 250k, utg abc mex guy raises too 40k, chip leader older former punker guy flats 40k , i look down in sb i see KK ," I AM ALL IN " i shove 250k , this is my 1st FT announced all in, other showdowns were call offs with solid cards, anyhow,utg folds.NOT FORMER PUNKER GUY HE THINKS FOR LIKE 6-7 MINUTES, SAYN my stomach is in knots, I HAVE A BIG HAND!!!,i am thinkn oh he has tt-qq .He needs too call 218k on a 372k pot, ok boom he calls he has AQoff spikes ace on flop i'm out i get 500 bux,they're happy i'm gone, the table vultures on the CL and chops instantly {the cl he is so dumb he didn't realize that they worked him, he excepted 200 more,basically 50 from ea. player }

    So now here is the deal, i know my money was in good and if i win that hand" bink" i feel i will get what i wanted(hu play) and if these situations happen long run like this, i'm golden(sounds good)but now i ponder is this a wise move by me too not chop here with the blinds vs.the clock vs.the players vs chop amount which was just over 3rd place money(1300+) vs. bad beat odds /coolers vs. me wanting HU play . I mean my attitude during the tourney is that i am +ev too play on vs.these players,but now i feel that i'd like opinions.The blinds lasted 30 min. btw

    .......... so basically is taking 3rd place money best or was i GREEDY ? or do u think my actions were justified and my window of opportunity for dominance came and to continue doing the same if in similar spots again..its possible getting 500 vs 1300 left sour taste in my mouth
    Edited By: double_kyan Sep 20th, 2011 at 07:27 AM
     1
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  2. you know you got it in good so as long as you thought you had an advantage on those fools. really though the blinds were creeping up there pretty good. so you could've chopped for $1300 but instead he spiked the ace and you got $500?

    also a 10k event sounds like a 10k buyin, i'd say 10k gtd just so people don't get confused
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  3. lmao haha can't believe i didn't put gtd thnx
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  4. dont cchop.

    live players would chop with three tables left if they could nd it tilts the shit out of me how they all gang up on the guy who doesnt.

    sure its high variance when the blinds get up nd it can seem like flippin coins for money, but they tend to have such a horrible push/fold game its just so profitable to play it out. especially seens as they are generally bad shorthanded and lack experience HU...
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  5. I'm never chopping in that situation. If I have chips and I feel like I have an advantage it makes absolutely no sense to just give lesser players money. Just think about it this way....if the ace doesn't hit do you even make this thread?
     
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  6. You made the right decision to play it out IMO. It is unfortunate that the guys "big hand" got there from behind on you. You definitely would have ran over that FT had that ace not hit so just chalk it up to bad luck and kick their asses next time. Sadly, that guy probably thinks he made a great call.
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  7. I guess I'm the only one that disagrees. I'd always chop here being that only 1 player has over 20bbs. This isn't really a spot where the best player will win more often. Even after winning the pot if you do hit an ace you'll have less than 40bbs. Second Chipleader is really just a title and just means that you 15bbs which isn't anything to feel good about.

    With everything looking like this

    Seat 3 CL 375k
    Seat 3(??) Psycho 120k
    seat 4 80k
    Seat 1 140k
    seat 2 90k
    You 250k

    Blinds 8-16k 3k ante

    I'll take 3rd place every time
    And its pretty hard to run over a table with only 15-30bbs IMO
    Edited By: theman200050 Sep 19th, 2011 at 07:26 PM
     
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  8. chop, don't chop, it doesn't really matter, we're all gonna die eventually anyways.
     
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  9.  
    Originally Posted by theman200050 View Post

    I guess I'm the only one that disagrees. I'd always chop here being that only 1 player has over 20bbs. This isn't really a spot where the best player will win more often. Even after winning the pot if you do hit an ace you'll have less than 40bbs. Second Chipleader is really just a title and just means that you 15bbs which isn't anything to feel good about.

    With everything looking like this

    Seat 3 CL 375k
    Seat 3(??) Psycho 120k
    seat 4 80k
    Seat 1 140k
    seat 2 90k
    You 250k

    Blinds 8-16k 3k ante

    I'll take 3rd place every time
    And its pretty hard to run over a table with only 15-30bbs IMO

    Your argument does make a lot of sense. In fact it may have even swayed my opinion towards leaning to a chop instead of going for the win. Seems like this decision may actually be +EV given the likely shove-fest that this tournament is soon to turn into.
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  10. never seen a 'should I chop' thread where the OP wasn't the best at the table.

    I wouldn't chop because most live players are shitty at push/fold poker (like the CL that flatted/called w AQ, geez). lotta variance so short but I still take my chances.
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  11. start negotiating at 2k... if they are willing to give you $1500 take the $1500.. if they won't give you that then play it out.
     
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  12.  
    Originally Posted by smcrawford2 View Post

    chop, don't chop, it doesn't really matter, we're all gonna die eventually anyways.

    Good point.
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  13. unless u have to poop real bad, don't chop........you play to get to the FT and the associated feelings - just go with it

    what a rush turning KK..............
     
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  14.  
    Originally Posted by norv View Post

    unless u have to poop real bad, don't chop........you play to get to the FT and the associated feelings - just go with it

    what a rush turning KK..............

    I play to make the most money, fuck the final table

    And yea if you and the CL want to negotiate you could probably get an extra hundred or two, but in a 60 dollar live tournament I wouldn't even want to deal with the process of it IMO

     
    Originally Posted by EyeKnows View Post

    never seen a 'should I chop' thread where the OP wasn't the best at the table.

    I wouldn't chop because most live players are shitty at push/fold poker (like the CL that flatted/called w AQ, geez). lotta variance so short but I still take my chances.

    The "Second CL" shove is 15 bbs 6 handed, no need to say more
     
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  15. more than 15bb
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  16. 250k at 8k/16k

    15.625 BBs
    My apologies
     
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  17. This is a case where because you're playing live, you should just take the chop. As theman said before me, the stacks are all shallow thus negating whatever significant skill edge you may have on the table. That's one reason to chop. The second is just the nature of live tournaments. How often does this $10k guaranteed tournament run? My guess would be not very often. How often do worthwhile tournaments run at your casino or any casino nearby? Chopping eliminates the short term bad luck factor. You're never going to play enough tournaments live in your lifetime where variance is going to right itself so to speak so you're better off taking advantage of these situations when they arise. Of course I would be doing my best to negotiate a better deal but the deal still is the prudent play here.
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  18. Who ever heard of KK getting called down and outdrawn on by AQ at a FT of a $60 buck tournament, I can't imagine ever pulling my ego out of my ass and replacing it with an extra $800 when I am clearly the best player and plan to steamroll the table.
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  19. sounds like a tourney at the Bike? dont chop with these donks.
     
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  20. There are huge edges to be had at less than 20bb's... that's what push fold is. take turbo's as evidence, if you also consider that live players play less tournaments and are by definition less experienced in the final stages of an mtt most former online grinders would have a distinct advantage and should be hesitant to chop.
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  21.  
    Originally Posted by dgillis View Post

    There are huge edges to be had at less than 20bb's... that's what push fold is. take turbo's as evidence, if you also consider that live players play less tournaments and are by definition less experienced in the final stages of an mtt most former online grinders would have a distinct advantage and should be hesitant to chop.

    I disagree 100%. In ten minutes you will have 12 bbs and there will be a total of 50 BBs on the table. If winning gets you off or something then I'd still go buy a hooker before I play out this tournament. You might get 20 hands in before the blinds jump after the 10k/20k level. Chopping this tournament, with these stack sizes/blind levels is a must if you want to make the most money long term IMO. It's a 60 dollar tournament. Nobody plays these for a living because(again IMO) YOU CAN"T. Chop it and go play a tournament with a better structure than a 60$ buy in at the bike or wherever it is. If Moorman was in your shoes I don't think he'd have even close to a "huge edge" in this tournament.

    This isn't the last tournament you'll be playing, so take down the next one(which hopefully has a better structure than 30 minute blind levels at the FT).
    Edited By: theman200050 Sep 21st, 2011 at 10:38 PM
     
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  22. actually 30 min levels are great for these events at b+m's like this, it was from a satty seat tht i won and this was like the big monthly event [i guess] but usually blind levels are like 10-15 min, anyhow peeps thnx for the responses obv. we all have opinions and i like too hear thm,that way someday i will combine all of your brain power into my own and i will become THE MAN :P gl out there

     
    Originally Posted by norv View Post

    unless u have to poop real bad, don't chop........you play to get to the FT and the associated feelings - just go with it

    what a rush turning KK..............


    you're not kidding about the rush turning kk ,he tanks forever and when i heard " I Call" i turned them over so fast and that flop had me jump out my shoes ,lol thats poker, what can i do,"NEXT!!"
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  23. amateur players are more subject to bubble fear and will fold much more than they should, thats where your profit is. The blind speed is a factor your going to be taking into account if your any good at P\F, you will have an edge. There will be higher variance in this mtt but if your familiar with the style it can be theoretically profitable assuming the rake isnt awful which it probably is. The question here is can he play enough of them to make up for the higher variance, can he get a good enough rake to be profitable, and is he going to be maxing out his hourly rate. The answer is likely no, so I agree he should probably not be playing this tournament for a living, but I doubt that was his intention. So if we agree that he cant be playing this mtt to make money then the money shouldn't matter and we have another reason not to chop. if you still dont believe me look up push\fold and study it\the math behind it, you should see what I'm talking about. its likely that he should have been pushing much harder much sooner so as to avoid being in a position where a blind raise puts him @ such a low bb stack. FWIW one exception to this would be if he was playing considerably out of his bankroll and $800 would be a large boost to it, but BR MGMT tells us not to be doing that so I didnt really address that.
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  24.  
    Originally Posted by dgillis View Post

    amateur players are more subject to bubble fear and will fold much more than they should, thats where your profit is. The blind speed is a factor your going to be taking into account if your any good at P\F, you will have an edge. There will be higher variance in this mtt but if your familiar with the style it can be theoretically profitable assuming the rake isnt awful which it probably is. The question here is can he play enough of them to make up for the higher variance, can he get a good enough rake to be profitable, and is he going to be maxing out his hourly rate. The answer is likely no, so I agree he should probably not be playing this tournament for a living, but I doubt that was his intention. So if we agree that he cant be playing this mtt to make money then the money shouldn't matter and we have another reason not to chop. if you still dont believe me look up push\fold and study it\the math behind it, you should see what I'm talking about. its likely that he should have been pushing much harder much sooner so as to avoid being in a position where a blind raise puts him @ such a low bb stack. FWIW one exception to this would be if he was playing considerably out of his bankroll and $800 would be a large boost to it, but BR MGMT tells us not to be doing that so I didnt really address that.

    Ok. Let me break this down and I promise I'll stop posting ITT.

     

    The blind speed is a factor your going to be taking into account if your any good at P\F, you will have an edge.

    Honestly I think I have an edge against every player playing a 60$ tournament. No matter where the tournament is held or the type of structure I feel i do have an edge. You said that there was still a "huge edge" with these stack sizes. I completely disagree with the "huge edge theory" and the Edge I do have will never make up for the variance.

     

    There will be higher variance in this mtt but if your familiar with the style it can be theoretically profitable assuming the rake isnt awful which it probably is

    That has been my point entirely. In the non bolded part, it seems you are arguing that a 60$ tournament at a B&M is "theoretically profitable". Theoretically, I think this would be the least profitable tournament of any tournament that I can think of(except all in or folds at commerce, bike, etc). Terrible players play terrible structures because they can actually compete in that tournament. The good player's edge decrease as the blinds increase(that being quickly in this tourney).

     

    The question here is can he play enough of them to make up for the higher variance, can he get a good enough rake to be profitable, and is he going to be maxing out his hourly rate. The answer is likely no, so I agree he should probably not be playing this tournament for a living, but I doubt that was his intention

    The answer isn't likely no, IT IS NO. And why do you doubt that was his intention? Do I think he's a 60$ B And M Grinder? No. Do I know if he does this for a living or what his intention was for this tournament? Definitely not. I am assuming he wants to make the most money in the game of poker. That is all.

     

    So if we agree that he cant be playing this mtt to make money then the money shouldn't matter and we have another reason not to chop.

    Can't be playing to make money? I know it's english I just don't understand it. I mean, again, if it makes your dick hard and that has some value to you, then go for it. But if you play poker as your main source of income, then I think you should maximize your profit and get ready for the 60$ tournament variance.

     

    if you still dont believe me look up push\fold and study it\the math behind it, you should see what I'm talking about.

    Link? Obv I'm new to this.

     

    its likely that he should have been pushing much harder much sooner so as to avoid being in a position where a blind raise puts him @ such a low bb stack

    Again that's an assumption without merit. The whole table has 60 Big blinds. ONLY 60BBS. TOTAL. These types of tournament do not allow people(even the best) to dominate it.


    My bad for sounding like an asshole, nothing personal at all just debating a topic
     
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  25.  
    Originally Posted by theman200050 View Post

    I completely disagree with the "huge edge theory" and the Edge I do have will never make up for the variance.

    what variance?

    and positive variance is just as likely as negative variance, don't be so scared, if you have an edge, apply it.
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  26. once you learn push\fold you realize just how bad people are at it. if your are very good at it and they are very bad at it then you have what I consider a "huge edge" however since this is a relative statement it cannot be validated or invalidated in regards to this particular tournament without additional info, which we cant come close to having. you cant possibly know the profitability of a mtt without more information. you would need to know all kinds of factors but mostly you need to know the structure, the rake, and the frequency of the mtt. Your assuming that this is an awful tournament because of the similar ones you've played and I agree that you're probably right but the reason I said "theoretically" is because there are a set of circumstances that could make a $60 B&M Mtt profitable.

    my comments were intended to point out his line of thought if he were playing on a "professional" level. Mostly as support for my assumption that he was not in fact pursuing poker as a profession. (this is why I "doubted his intention")

     

    Can't be playing to make money? I know it's english I just don't understand it. I mean, again, if it makes your dick hard and that has some value to you, then go for it. But if you play poker as your main source of income, then I think you should maximize your profit and get ready for the 60$ tournament variance

    I dont mean he's not playing for money, or that money doesn't matter, I'm saying he is not a professional that plays for a living (you make a living by making money.) I apologize for the confusion.

     

    Link? Obv I'm new to this.

    here's a good introduction to one of the main theories behind push fold you'll have to search for the rest but this is plenty to get you started. if you haven't read her articles I would immediately read all of jennifears stuff. Read some of the strategy articles too, there are some real gems by some great writers that have graced the front page of this site. (if you like books better "professional no limit holdem" is great at explaining the intricacies)

    Link

     

    Again that's an assumption without merit. The whole table has 60 Big blinds. ONLY 60BBS. TOTAL. These types of tournament do not allow people(even the best) to dominate it.

    Push fold is designed to keep you from getting to this point, if playing it correctly you would likely have either already busted or have a much larger stack. If he was playing optimally he would have been pushing faster sooner, that's based on math and going deeper would take way too much time, the icm\pushfold stuff should tell you why I said that.

     

    My bad for sounding like an asshole, nothing personal at all just debating a topic

    while I personally don't mind because you seem genuine, poker forums are filled with those who take offense easily. My best advice on that is to be careful not to get a bad rep, that might make it hard to find people willing to debate\help and that doesn't benefit you or the fives community.
    Edited By: dgillis Sep 22nd, 2011 at 11:21 AM
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  27.  
    Originally Posted by EyeKnows View Post

    what variance?

    and positive variance is just as likely as negative variance, don't be so scared, if you have an edge, apply it.

    Wow man, just LOL.
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  28. was in this same position the other day...6 handed, $2500 for first....second was 1450 or something. 6th was like $250, we all chopped for $900. was glad to take it and i had 20bb's, i think second had like 15 bbs
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  29.  
    Originally Posted by kcd0g View Post

    Wow man, just LOL.

    you obviously have a strong grasp of the concept call "variance", elmo el.
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  30.  
    Originally Posted by dgillis View Post

    There are huge edges to be had at less than 20bb's... that's what push fold is. take turbo's as evidence, if you also consider that live players play less tournaments and are by definition less experienced in the final stages of an mtt most former online grinders would have a distinct advantage and should be hesitant to chop.

    Pretty much this...I would never chop here no matter the number of times I would play this tourney. I actually think that if you know your resteal and shove spots taking a chop here is very -EV.
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