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Live turbo-y FT, R/F shove or fold with 15bb spot

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  1. bonflizubi bonflizubi is offline

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    Dec 23rd, 2011 (12/23/2011 6:32pm)

    FT of a live donkament. $50 buyin 12k chips to start, 20 minute levels. Top heavy payouts. $90 for 9th, $1k for first. We just reached the FT and broke the money bubble.

    Avg stack is 112k I have 94k at 3k/6k/no antes. 8 minutes till next blinds which are 4k/8k.

    3 stacks are smaller than me, one stack at 3bb and 2 guys with around 180k each to my left. Play is generally very very nitty but I don't know anything about 1/2 the table as I just showed up. I can assume I have an edge but structure blows here.

    I'm dealt ATcc my first hand there UTG +2 9 handed. With no antes in play and ICM coming involved is this a R/F or a jam? (I can't imagine really folding here) . Was really debating as I sat there and am very rusty live.
     
  2. GutShotBen GutShotBen is offline

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    Dec 23rd, 2011 (12/23/2011 6:40pm) in reply to bonflizubi

    16500 and fold?you said play pretty nit right?

    if i know people are willing to 3bet lightisshh i prefer to jam
     
  3. bonflizubi bonflizubi is offline

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    Dec 23rd, 2011 (12/23/2011 6:44pm) in reply to GutShotBen

     
    Originally Posted by GutShotBen View Post

    16500 and fold?you said play pretty nit right?

    if i know people are willing to 3bet lightisshh i prefer to jam


    I think I would likely be the only light 3 bettor. Likely no one else will be doing this light as they are all 50+ year old men.
     
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  4. F1sherman F1sherman is offline

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    Dec 24th, 2011 (12/24/2011 12:00am) in reply to bonflizubi

    With no antes, I wouldn't Jam because you're only getting called by better. Min raise/fold to 3bet from bigger stack but you'll most likely end up with 1 or w callers. Outplay them post flop.
  5. GutShotBen GutShotBen is offline

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    Dec 24th, 2011 (12/24/2011 3:29am) in reply to F1sherman

    yeah no antes mix with old live players.....i min /fold
     
  6. gjallen1975 gjallen1975 is offline

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    Dec 24th, 2011 (12/24/2011 3:35am) in reply to GutShotBen

    what's the next level and how long til then? not sure it matters...

    prolly fold. tempting spot. you may even have the best hand, but i think you'll find a better spot w/ 15 BB. yeah...min raise fold OK too...but why even put yourself in a spot to fold away chips w/ 15 BB? prolly better min raisng ATC from HJ/CO.

    not sure i'm right either...just how i think i'd play it....

    advocating limping can get u banned on P5, so i prefer fold pre...but will say...w/ ur position, i prefer limp to min raise here. if u limp, people over limp. not the worst hand to play a multi way with. still i like fold, then jam, then limp, then min raise. just me....
    Edited By: gjallen1975 Dec 24th, 2011 at 03:39 AM
  7. pokerproplaya08 pokerproplaya08 is offline

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    Dec 24th, 2011 (12/24/2011 8:10am) in reply to GutShotBen

     
    Originally Posted by GutShotBen View Post

    16500 and fold?you said play pretty nit right?

    if i know people are willing to 3bet lightisshh i prefer to jam

    if you know they're willing to 3b light, why not r/c their shoves or reshove over their 3b if you know they're light?
  8. bonflizubi bonflizubi is offline

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    Dec 24th, 2011 (12/24/2011 4:12pm) in reply to gjallen1975

     
    Originally Posted by gjallen1975 View Post

    what's the next level and how long til then? not sure it matters...

    8 min till 4k/8k
     
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  9. FouTight FouTight is offline international super spy

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    Dec 24th, 2011 (12/24/2011 7:51pm) in reply to bonflizubi

    50$ live players are never gonna 3bet allin on a FT lightly.

    Raise-fold all day imo
    730 
  10. gjallen1975 gjallen1975 is offline

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    Dec 24th, 2011 (12/24/2011 8:17pm) in reply to FouTight

    they also don't understand implied odds and will set mine, call a SC HU, or KJ/Q type hand. so what happens when you get flatted and miss 2/3 of your flops?
    Edited By: gjallen1975 Dec 24th, 2011 at 08:17 PM
  11. ShipIt2Dubs ShipIt2Dubs is offline

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    Dec 25th, 2011 (12/25/2011 4:22am) in reply to gjallen1975

    min fold everyday.... You say you have an edge, if you get raised, you are moving on to pick a better spot.
  12. pokerproplaya08 pokerproplaya08 is offline

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    Dec 25th, 2011 (12/25/2011 10:15pm) in reply to FouTight

     
    Originally Posted by FouTight View Post

    50$ live players are never gonna 3bet allin on a FT lightly.

    Raise-fold all day imo

    i agree with the 2nd part of the statement. But i've played some pretty lol tournaments in my life and trust me, people are def shoving with rat shit and people are calling absurdly big shoves with rat shit. It just depends on their oi factor.
  13. GutShotBen GutShotBen is offline

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    Dec 25th, 2011 (12/25/2011 11:31pm) in reply to pokerproplaya08

     
    Originally Posted by pokerproplaya08 View Post

    if you know they're willing to 3b light, why not r/c their shoves or reshove over their 3b if you know they're light?

    maximized fold equity

     
    Originally Posted by FouTight View Post

    50$ live players are never gonna 3bet allin on a FT lightly.

    Raise-fold all day imo

    this sooo freaking bad
     
  14. iamthedeck ftw iamthedeck ftw is offline

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    Dec 26th, 2011 (12/26/2011 1:09am) in reply to GutShotBen

    These people are so bad they are likely to flat with a hand like 22-TT and some suited connectors but you will likely get shoved on with a big pair or AK. It depends on how comfortable you are postflop. I like a fold since these people are so bad and you will find spots to jam light in late position.
     
  15. bonflizubi bonflizubi is offline

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    Dec 26th, 2011 (12/26/2011 4:36pm) in reply to iamthedeck ftw

     
    Originally Posted by iamthedeck ftw View Post

    These people are so bad they are likely to flat with a hand like 22-TT and some suited connectors but you will likely get shoved on with a big pair or AK. It depends on how comfortable you are postflop.


    This is the most accurate description of the players in this tournament so far.

    Good discussion. Will post results soon once conversation dies down.
     
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  16. shane3769 shane3769 is offline

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    Dec 26th, 2011 (12/26/2011 5:24pm) in reply to bonflizubi

    With no antes I think I would seriously just fold unless the table is ridic tight. which it probably is, in which case i like the min-r/f
     
  17. FouTight FouTight is offline international super spy

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    Dec 27th, 2011 (12/27/2011 5:51am) in reply to gjallen1975

     
    Originally Posted by gjallen1975 View Post

    they also don't understand implied odds and will set mine, call a SC HU, or KJ/Q type hand. so what happens when you get flatted and miss 2/3 of your flops?


    when you miss you cbet super small and pray for a fold in this huge swing spot
    730 
  18. tedSTRETCH tedSTRETCH is offline

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    Dec 27th, 2011 (12/27/2011 6:03am) in reply to FouTight

    min raise/ fold to shove, if you get flatted its most likely going to be out of the sb or bb. A small cbet will take down most pots.
    553 
  19. RedIceRap RedIceRap is offline Moderator

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    Dec 27th, 2011 (12/27/2011 6:06am) in reply to tedSTRETCH

    am i the only one who thinks live players will call way too often with good looking hands.. think i just shoving it in, raise plus cbet means losing about a third of my stack there...

    i mean i do play live about once a week and even without antes this is a +ev shove imo
     252 
  20. bonflizubi bonflizubi is offline

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    Dec 28th, 2011 (12/28/2011 5:28pm) in reply to RedIceRap

    results, for those that might care.

    I shoved from teh 3 seat.
    4 seat shoved his 3bb with KQ
    5 seat called after a moments pause for half his stack.
    6 seat thought for a moment and shipped for more, putting the 5 almost all in.
    7 seat folds
    8 seat folded AKss (He showed the waitress after laughing so hard he almost was crying when he looked down and saw his hand.)
    5 seat called unhappily feeling pot committed

    so,
    4 seat KQ
    5 seat TT
    6 seat AQo (Wtf was he thinking...?)
    me ATcc

    board ran out clean for the TT and a triple knockout.

    Obviously if I played this r/f there would have been enough action ahead of me to get me to fold by the time it came back around.
    Edited By: bonflizubi Dec 28th, 2011 at 05:29 PM
     
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  21. RedIceRap RedIceRap is offline Moderator

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    Dec 28th, 2011 (12/28/2011 5:48pm) in reply to bonflizubi

    So, will u r/f this in the future? And can someone who has a clue about live poker say what the right move would be? Online i think im shovin it in even without antes. I mean TT, AQ and AKs is just unlucky as hell. I got no single playable hand in 3 hours yesterday when i played live... And another guy got 3xKK, JJ, QQ etc...
     252 
  22. bonflizubi bonflizubi is offline

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    Dec 28th, 2011 (12/28/2011 7:49pm) in reply to RedIceRap

     
    Originally Posted by RedIceRap View Post

    So, will u r/f this in the future? And can someone who has a clue about live poker say what the right move would be? Online i think im shovin it in even without antes. I mean TT, AQ and AKs is just unlucky as hell. I got no single playable hand in 3 hours yesterday when i played live... And another guy got 3xKK, JJ, QQ etc...


    Online I'm shoving all day. Live - I'm r/f in this spot, because of the ICM implications and the stacks. Out of the money I probably still shove.

    One thing no one commented on were the stack sizes and pay jumps, which i think have to be factored in.
     
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