Check out our brand new Local Poker Communities! Get updates and interact with poker players in your area.
Visit the United States Poker Community | Visit the California Poker Community | Read more about the Launch of P5s Local

Ummmm... Ballerest fold in WPT 25k Champ

Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 21 2
  1. Pghfan987 Pghfan987 is offline

    Costa Rica

    Posts: 9,668
    Joined: May 08

    May 22nd, 2011 (5/22/2011 8:37pm) in reply to Hixx

    The river isn't an overbet.
    660 1
  2. Hixx Hixx is offline

    Vancouver
    Canada

    Posts: 77
    Joined: Apr 06

    May 22nd, 2011 (5/22/2011 9:09pm) in reply to Pghfan987

    oops i misread it, looks like 66k into 70k ish, still think he would bet a lot less with that part of his range though
    32 
  3. Pghfan987 Pghfan987 is offline

    Costa Rica

    Posts: 9,668
    Joined: May 08

    May 22nd, 2011 (5/22/2011 9:30pm) in reply to Hixx

     
    Originally Posted by Hixx View Post

    It should be 88, 89s, or A8s or air (since we know other player he has KK that isn't in tony's range). I doubt he's ever capable of having air here, having said that he also never takes this line with 89s or A8s for value. What worse hand will call? Good fold

    He wouldn't overbet the pot with the 89s and A8s portion of his range on the river imo. He could also have some other 8x suited hands and I think he would take the same line with those too.

    I'm not sure what you mean: why would you put 78s in Gargano's range but not 89s? Don't those two hands play almost exactly the same against Lee's range?
    660 1
  4. Hixx Hixx is offline

    Vancouver
    Canada

    Posts: 77
    Joined: Apr 06

    May 22nd, 2011 (5/22/2011 9:37pm) in reply to Pghfan987

    Regarding the last sentence , i meant that he would take that same line (betting less) with any suited 8x hand he had and that it fit into the 89s A8s category. Sorry for all the rambling above, hope that makes more sense.
    32 
  5. Pghfan987 Pghfan987 is offline

    Costa Rica

    Posts: 9,668
    Joined: May 08

    May 22nd, 2011 (5/22/2011 9:50pm) in reply to Hixx

    Oh I gotcha. So you think he'd value bet smaller with 8x (including 89) so he can induce a call from AK.

    Personally I'd take the exact same line as Lee and call the river. AA seems so unlikely, 8x hands seem far more likely. I know we sit here any say "why would Gargano shove 8x, what could Lee call with that he beats?", but isn't the maxim that we always try to follow in high stakes poker that we want to force our opponents into making the mistakes? Not to mention Gargano did size his bets to set up a big PSB on the river, I don't see why he couldn't have air here (I know absolutely nothing about who Gargano is, just speaking generally.)
    660 1
  6. Hixx Hixx is offline

    Vancouver
    Canada

    Posts: 77
    Joined: Apr 06

    May 22nd, 2011 (5/22/2011 9:59pm) in reply to Pghfan987

    I guess I should have been even more specific with my post. Also we have no feel for the table dynamics so I'm going based off of what I know about each player. I think gargano is drunkpplaya who is a v good solid mtt reg and I have never played with bernard lee so I just assume hes a nittier older player (esp. since he folded kk here). I feel like it's ambitious to say he goes for value 175 bbs effective deep in a 25k with anything but quads kk or aa. When he goes from donking 6k flop, 12k turn, then 66k river I feel like those 3 hands make up his range exactly. I feel like with the weaker portion (8xs, ak type hands, guess he could have that too) he would simply bet 24kish again trying to extract as much value from a range that will probably fold to a shove.
    32 
  7. bigpimpin777 bigpimpin777 is offline

    Mexico

    Posts: 43
    Joined: Aug 09

    Aug 22nd, 2011 (8/22/2011 6:13am) in reply to Hixx

    There is a crucial piece of info missing here...........did Bernard Lee kiss the pictures of his kids before or after the fold??? This info will help my response.
     
  8. SigmaBetaRho SigmaBetaRho is offline

    Glen Oaks, NY
    United States

    Posts: 989
    Joined: Nov 06

    Aug 22nd, 2011 (8/22/2011 6:48am) in reply to bigpimpin777

    Flatting the flop raise from Lee looks really strong.

    The 12K turn bet into a ~50k pot is interesting, just setting up the perfect pot sized bet for the river or a jam from Lee.

    If he has quads here, I don't know why he would set himself up for a river jam if he wants to get called.
  9. TheVillageGrinder TheVillageGrinder is offline

    United States

    Posts: 1,970
    Joined: Sep 07

    Aug 22nd, 2011 (8/22/2011 3:15pm) in reply to Steve Murkle

     
    Originally Posted by Steve Murkle View Post

    I agree with MMM in the fact that Gargano's hand is really face up as a nutted hand. But rlly how can you put him on 2 hands with only like 4 combos available. Especially when he can have so many other nutted hands like a8 and 99. And yes he easily plays 99 like this as well.

    Really? So bet call the flop (with 99) vs an opponent that 3bet him pre?
    Edited By: TheVillageGrinder Aug 22nd, 2011 at 03:21 PM
  10. Thevagwhisperer Thevagwhisperer is offline

    UT
    United States

    Posts: 30
    Joined: Aug 11

    Aug 25th, 2011 (8/25/2011 11:36pm) in reply to Steve Murkle

    Would possible play AK like this as well. Doubt he's putting an 8 in B lee's range.
  11. SlayNL SlayNL is offline

    Posts: 2,456
    Joined: Oct 10

    Aug 26th, 2011 (8/26/2011 4:02am) in reply to Thevagwhisperer

     
    Originally Posted by Thevagwhisperer View Post

    Would possible play AK like this as well. Doubt he's putting an 8 in B lee's range.

    Yeah doubt he's putting an 8 in Lee's range since he had both of them...
  12. double_kyan double_kyan is offline

    CA
    United States

    Posts: 1,296
    Joined: Jul 08

    Aug 26th, 2011 (8/26/2011 8:38am) in reply to SlayNL

    all tht investment ,that bet coulda been a claim for the ace with qq he coulda turned the 999 ,even ak is possibility...........so much chips into this. he had too of seen the quads throat gulp a mile away and maybe its the sickest laydown ever but i have quads guy could be lying his arse off .....NO SHOW-NO KNOW
     1
  13. Thevagwhisperer Thevagwhisperer is offline

    UT
    United States

    Posts: 30
    Joined: Aug 11

    Aug 26th, 2011 (8/26/2011 5:11pm) in reply to SlayNL

     
    Originally Posted by SlayNL View Post

    Yeah doubt he's putting an 8 in Lee's range since he had both of them...

    hearsay
  14. Blue Knight4 Blue Knight4 is offline

    Huntington Beach, CA
    United States

    Posts: 14
    Joined: Sep 09

    Aug 30th, 2011 (8/30/2011 11:11pm) in reply to Thevagwhisperer

    Im kinda thinking u gotta call and chalk it up to a cooler.
    I feel like, IF hes taking a line OTR betting 24k with 8x, or AA etc to get a call from AK and other weaker hands, hes going to do the same with 8888, i mean he should expect to get raised from the KK or AA hands anyways.
    I love the lead here (assuming he had 88) since bernards utg+1 3betting range may be tight. but when bernard raises the flop <---**refer back to this later in post**, really, why are we not checking the turn with 8888, bernard either has a made hand that he will bet OR is bluffing and will likely follow up with another bet, tony should CHECK the turn with a hand like 8888 imo. and if he is a solid regular, im kinda thinking he would. I mean even if bernard lee DOES take a pot control line and check the turn, check it one more time on the river, if hes as strong as AK or AA OTR hes gonna try a value bet i think.

    All that being said, I feel like tony would assume that bernard would NOT raise KK in position on this board,**ya, I mean really?** (I mean what is bernard doing raising there with KK in position in the first place, if hes not inducing a bluff or soul reading tony for an 8, also i dont see why tony would think bernard is raising AA on this flop either.

    It is a 25k so, if he can take AA and KK and an 8 out of his range, he may try to take a SICK bluff line here assuming the guy can fold AK even! btw was thre a flusdraw on this flop?
    if so tony could be putting AQs into bernards range calling the turn bet?
    I mean, lets be real guys, coolers happen, and who is to say that tony isnt just over-playing an 8 thinking he WOULD get a hero call?!?!?!
    I think this fold is horrid, and if he played 8888 that way i like the line until the turn, then aftter that i HATE the line, i mean at least bet small on the river since we know the guy needs AK minimum to call.
    If he bluffed there, i give him mad props.
    Oh and yeah, people lie about hands all the time, i wouldnt want people to know i could bluff like that, (I mean if i could).
     
  15. jimbo1420069 jimbo1420069 is offline

    Chicago, IL
    United States

    Posts: 1
    Joined: Dec 09

    Aug 30th, 2011 (8/30/2011 11:18pm) in reply to Blue Knight4

    with everything being said i think we have to c quads over quads vs these idiots to get it in obv
    whatever happened to a damn cooler chalk it up kk im not foldin in a 100 BI or a 100k BI
    all these damn ppl tryin to make hero folds in big buy ins
     
  16. Blue Knight4 Blue Knight4 is offline

    Huntington Beach, CA
    United States

    Posts: 14
    Joined: Sep 09

    Aug 30th, 2011 (8/30/2011 11:21pm) in reply to jimbo1420069

    I guess this is what I meant
     
  17. Hixx Hixx is offline

    Vancouver
    Canada

    Posts: 77
    Joined: Apr 06

    Aug 31st, 2011 (8/31/2011 12:55am) in reply to Blue Knight4

    You really think he is going to bet 6k/12k then shove this river for value (66k, which is an overbet compared to what he bet on flop and turn) with just trips or a bluff vs bernard lees perceived range of AK, AA, and KK here 200 bbs effective in a 25k? Think about bet sizing for a minute, it is quite important. Doubt he's shoving with anything less than quads for value vs a nit, in fact i would say that would just be flat out terrible.

    When i say shoving anything less then quads would be terrible, I meant it as tony probably never has AA or KK given his preflop action. So shoving 88 AA and KK is obviously good, assuming he can be tricky preflop.
    Edited By: Hixx Aug 31st, 2011 at 01:33 AM
    32 
  18. MasTheLegend MasTheLegend is offline

    Algonquin, IL
    United States

    Posts: 15
    Joined: Jul 07

    Aug 31st, 2011 (8/31/2011 2:05am) in reply to Hixx

    If Tony check raises on the flop, i dont think you would see a river. Bernard either reraises or the money goes in on the turn right?
     
  19. Blue Knight4 Blue Knight4 is offline

    Huntington Beach, CA
    United States

    Posts: 14
    Joined: Sep 09

    Aug 31st, 2011 (8/31/2011 2:06am) in reply to MasTheLegend

    I guess any other river bernard would never fold because the A should affect the line for each player wetehr they have 87 or 88 oranything in between. bernard does likely have a tight range preflop, and perhaps bernard just straigth up soulreads tony for an 8 when he donk leads and decided to raise the flop assuming he wll get it all.
    Tony leads turn knowing lee cant fold AA planning to cram any river. I mean, perhaps he really does just assum that Lee is only 3betting KK or AA from that position? just soulread him. And maybe lee knows thats whats going on.

    that being said, if thats really whats going on shouldnt bernard be openign his preflop range? I think this whole problem goes away if he is known to
    be 3betting wider from time to time... right?
     
  20. sirswish6 sirswish6 is offline i mean super business

    Palatine, IL
    United States

    Posts: 2,852
    Joined: Apr 07

    Aug 31st, 2011 (8/31/2011 10:41am) in reply to Blue Knight4

    why play
    145 
  21. double_kyan double_kyan is offline

    CA
    United States

    Posts: 1,296
    Joined: Jul 08

    Aug 31st, 2011 (8/31/2011 5:18pm) in reply to sirswish6

     
    Originally Posted by sirswish6 View Post

    why play


    hahahahaha, exactly...............this guy has to always have that memory link that he laid this hand ,and really will never know if its a great laydown
     1
  22. BCP BCP is offline

    Posts: 191
    Joined: Jul 07

    Sep 2nd, 2011 (9/2/2011 7:29am) in reply to Renster12

    Not relevant to the hand discussion but he's a talented teacher...

    Jimmy Mac
    Edited By: BCP Sep 2nd, 2011 at 07:31 AM
Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 21 2

Similar Threads