Down to 23 players, pays 18, i have a huge stack(130k) on both my left and right with the other 5 players about even with 40k..I am utg+1 with AKs, 800/1600/300 (4800pot) i raise to 5200, folds to button who takes 30 seconds to shove. I played 7-8 orbits with him, tight, solid, probably not icm savvy enough to icm shove, I had him polarized on TT-QQ, maybe AQ,
I have 32k behind, we are essentually even/covered.????

I made an icm fold a couple orbits earlier with AQo to an old man who had not acted in an hour, when we were at 27, i had him covered by 10k. Min cash was $338
Final table min $900.

I had another event $330bi, $505 min cash, simular icm spot where i essentailly broomcorned to cash. Thoughts.

Snap Call. Shove pre as it will look weak and maybe get a hero call by Ax by a big stack..

raise less pre, throw icm out the window since these are pretty top heavy and call

To my immedaite right was a super aggr bigstack, once he folded i knew i was going all the way with this hand, obv. I bricked and wanted to see any alternatives, scooping that pot would have had me in a great spot to FT.

 

Originally Posted by sirswish6

raise less pre, throw icm out the window since these are pretty top heavy and call

Why are u raising so much pre? And really this is a no brainer call

for those saying easy call...here is my question....what are we ahead of?

-we're 8 handed here, so isn't opening UTG+1 a sign of strength?
-if we've show strength and villian shoves, doesn't this put any competent player AQ+ 99+?

i agree that if you open, you have to call, because you can't r/f AK w/ 23 BB and expect to win the tourney. but does nobody think limp/call is a more optimal line here....as i stated earlier ITT:

the problem with raising here is you aren't going to r/f AK, and you can't really call a 3b w/o pot committing yourself, so unless you think somebody is 3b light, 4b jamming is going to have you crushed a lot or flipping at best. by limping with 23 BB, you can call a 3-4 BB bet and play flop texture. plus you've under repped your hand which isn't bad either here.

the value of limping in is you can call a 3-4 BB raise, which is 1/6 to 1/7 of your remaining stack, and for that you get to see 60% of the remaining cards. you get a much clearer picture of where you are you in the hand, without pot committing yourself. yeah..you let the SB and BB in cheap, but then pick up 6-7 more BB when the BB holding K5 checks the flop, bets the turn, and checks the river. so for every "doomsday scenario" you can think of, there is another scenario that gets you chips from somebody who would have folded to an opening raise.

i realize "play to win" and limping is bad bad, but there are almost 10 quintillion scenarios 8 handed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poker_p...s_hold_'em) and just saying r/c is always the answer doesn't seem to evaluate this hand as a unique hand.

there is a well thought out, rational explanation. your just another sheep following the herd imo. dogma isn't good bro....

i just think there are unique dynamics to the hand. being UGT+1 and having 23 BB. if you change those dynamics slightly, i would agree with everybody else.

if you are later position, you may get played back at with more hands you beat.
if villian is deeper, or has a different image, you also could.
if we are 6 or 7 handed, that could make a difference.
if hero had been active, snap
if the large stacks were in later position, that makes a difference too...but the MP and LP players are evenly stacked w/ hero.

but going into the hand, unless i have a mark on certain players who could 3b light, you aren't getting played back at with AJ/ATs very often and are flipping. limping here is more than being conservative, it's also enticing AT in LP to raise, when they would have folded. It's causing KJ to convince himself you limped in w/ 99 and stack off when you hit your K on flop. imo you aren't just keeping yourself from busting, but also getting more players in the hand bad. Even that J6o may call 3-4 BB on the river he pairs either and you do too. You could catch a bluff....really anything. but calling a 3b pot commits you and you are usually racing at best.


i'm not advocating that 23 BB is a limping stack...i'm taking the total of circumstances in this hand.

totally agree, slam dunk and smile while you do it.......

i always seem to get in trouble in these sort of threads. i guess i'm stubborn and argumentative. my apologies for that, i realize how much of an ass i appear. still, i feel like it's not so much how flawed my line of thought here is that takes people aback, but how unconventional it is. i mean, what i'm am suggesting pretty much goes against everything everybody understands about poker.

the one thing i want to try and be clear on is the line i'm suggesting isn't just aimed at being conservative. it's also aimed at keeping worse in the hand. with 23 BB UTG+1 and a tight image, nearing the bubble, don't you feel like you are playing your hand pretty straight up? Unless you have been active from all positions, I feel you are making it pretty easy for your opponents to range you. Limping there sometimes means a monster, and it often means a small pair, but rarely means AK/AQ. Taking a counter intuitive approach which represents something different than what you actually have can pay dividends post flop.

In this particular hand, because you are so far OOP and have only 23 BB, raising pre gets nearly everything you are ahead of to fold out. While some players will jam AQ/ATs/AJ/JTs, only one of those should be in the range of a competent player. It just seems far more likely that you are played back at with a pair. And I agree, racing here isn't awful. If you open, then the pot odds, plus the implied odds of having a large stack during short-handed play, definitely makes it profitable. But to me, it still seems like a very small edge, with a lot of risk, when you consider the your range raising 23 BB from EP and BB's range jamming over it.

When you raise here, your odds of getting it in good are much smaller than when you limp. These players have a lot harded time letting go of their hands when they have put chips in the pot. The players in the CO, BTN, SB, BB are conditioned to fold out hands like 22-77, AJ, AT, KQ, QJs, JTs, KJs to an EP raise, and they are also conditioned to raise the limpers. I definitely want to keep LP players like KJ, QJ, and it would be great if BB has Kx, Ax.

It's easier to play pre-flop than post flop, i think. in this hand, it seems like by opening, your opponent is less likely to make a mistake pre-flop. Most of the time, you either get all folds, or jammed on by AQ+ 99+. You may get somebody to flat 22-QQ or a JTs type hand, but now you are OOP making a CB when you miss 2/3 of your flops. By limping, I think you rep a small pair, or monster, and not much esle.

So much depends on dynamics and reads. If there are some stacks 16 BB and less, definitely raise because you are ahead of more hands in their range. If there are large stacks in LP, raise because you can get flatted by worse. But if the two large stacks are EP and the rest of the stacks are pretty evenly stacked, limping seems like a slightly more optimal line. Concealing your hand strength, and getting your opponents to make mistakes/put in bad are our goals, and I think you have a better chance of that here. that said, i think r/c is a profitable play, but without a read that somebody will jam/3b light, and without a large or small stack in LP, you are usually racing, and getting everything you are ahead of to fold out.

raise smaller, call as fast as possible.... chip up and run over the field

 

Originally Posted by gjallen1975

i always seem to get in trouble in these sort of threads. i guess i'm stubborn and argumentative. my apologies for that, i realize how much of an ass i appear. still, i feel like it's not so much how flawed my line of thought here is that takes people aback, but how unconventional it is. i mean, what i'm am suggesting pretty much goes against everything everybody understands about poker.

the one thing i want to try and be clear on is the line i'm suggesting isn't just aimed at being conservative. it's also aimed at keeping worse in the hand. with 23 BB UTG+1 and a tight image, nearing the bubble, don't you feel like you are playing your hand pretty straight up? Unless you have been active from all positions, I feel you are making it pretty easy for your opponents to range you. Limping there sometimes means a monster, and it often means a small pair, but rarely means AK/AQ. Taking a counter intuitive approach which represents something different than what you actually have can pay dividends post flop.

In this particular hand, because you are so far OOP and have only 23 BB, raising pre gets nearly everything you are ahead of to fold out. While some players will jam AQ/ATs/AJ/JTs, only one of those should be in the range of a competent player. It just seems far more likely that you are played back at with a pair. And I agree, racing here isn't awful. If you open, then the pot odds, plus the implied odds of having a large stack during short-handed play, definitely makes it profitable. But to me, it still seems like a very small edge, with a lot of risk, when you consider the your range raising 23 BB from EP and BB's range jamming over it.

When you raise here, your odds of getting it in good are much smaller than when you limp. These players have a lot harded time letting go of their hands when they have put chips in the pot. The players in the CO, BTN, SB, BB are conditioned to fold out hands like 22-77, AJ, AT, KQ, QJs, JTs, KJs to an EP raise, and they are also conditioned to raise the limpers. I definitely want to keep LP players like KJ, QJ, and it would be great if BB has Kx, Ax.

It's easier to play pre-flop than post flop, i think. in this hand, it seems like by opening, your opponent is less likely to make a mistake pre-flop. Most of the time, you either get all folds, or jammed on by AQ+ 99+. You may get somebody to flat 22-QQ or a JTs type hand, but now you are OOP making a CB when you miss 2/3 of your flops. By limping, I think you rep a small pair, or monster, and not much esle.

So much depends on dynamics and reads. If there are some stacks 16 BB and less, definitely raise because you are ahead of more hands in their range. If there are large stacks in LP, raise because you can get flatted by worse. But if the two large stacks are EP and the rest of the stacks are pretty evenly stacked, limping seems like a slightly more optimal line. Concealing your hand strength, and getting your opponents to make mistakes/put in bad are our goals, and I think you have a better chance of that here. that said, i think r/c is a profitable play, but without a read that somebody will jam/3b light, and without a large or small stack in LP, you are usually racing, and getting everything you are ahead of to fold out.

just plain not true