[grapsfan Head Curmudgeon]

[HanoverFyst]

<p>Very well put.....but will fall on deaf ears. </p>
<p>Quoting R. Chapelly</p>
<p>"Hater's wanna hate....lovers wanna love.....poker players want...none of the above....they want to pizz on you...."</p>

[StoneColdNz]

<p>Nice Article ~  One more thing</p>
<p>-  This is a site for online poker and the grammer police belong on Dictionary.com</p>

[dgillis Moderator]

<p>VN sir. I think that since most of us play poker to make money, and following those guide lines would make improving quicker and easier they could make us all more money... IMO more money = more betttter</p>

[Gags30]

<p>i generally agree with everything in this article. i do have to say though, a lot of times, answering with a short "^^^^^^^" or quoting what someone said is a quick way to write that you agree with what that person is saying. it doens't necessarily add to a discussion, but there are many times when there's no need for further explanation.<br><br>a good example is all of those "can i fold KK pre here" posts. there's no need for me to add to "NO, never", when it's already been discussed in depth many many times and a simple search would have eliminated the whole thread. saying you agree with someone is just adding to the fact of what should have been done in the hand. when i make a thread about a close spot with a hand pre-flop, i like looking back on the thread and seeing how many say fold and how many say call. and yes, all the quoted responses count. it's just like voting for an option, and i see nothing wrong with it</p>

[Jennifear]

<p>^^^^</p>
<p>(Just kidding)</p>
<p>Great article Grapsfan!  I think that if everyone followed these rules, the site would get better.</p>

[haysuslizard]

<p>I rarely ever post but this article is worthy of flaming because, well frankly, it's worthless.   It doesn't matter what you post, SC Trojans or Annette, etc. are not going to provide input on a hand history from a donkey no name like me, regardless of whether we have game or not. And getting advice/guidance from a micro-donk p-fiver is miserable / useless.  Basically posting HH is a waste of time and I will never ever waste my time or the Sc trojan's  of world's time trying to anymore.  </p>

[grapsfan Head Curmudgeon]

<p>haysus, if you posted more, you'd know that ranked players like SCTrojans and Annette make responses to HH questions on a fairly regular basis, if they have time and find something which interests them.  Honestly, I can't think of too many players who HAVEN'T gotten involved in strategy debates from time to time.  If people could constructively start and advance HH discussions, they'd probably post a lot more (I know several ranked or formerly ranked players who barely post anymore because the negativity drove them away).</p>
<p>I would like to encourage you, Haysus, and everyone, to consider submitting an article and sharing your ideas with the rest of the community.  Assuming you have something less worthless to say, anyway.</p>

[grapsfan Head Curmudgeon]

<p>Gags, that's a fair way to look at the "^^^^" response, and if more people would see it that way, I wouldn't have mentioned it.  But for everyone who uses it as a "voting my opinion, but I have nothing more to add", 10 use it to be rude or just nutswing from someone popular who previously responded.</p>
<p>Thanks for reading, everyone.</p>

[lordxixor101]

<p>Haysus,</p>
<p>Actually, getting "donkey" advice on a message board from players who play your level is far from a bad thing.  Even if you can't incorporate what they say, it shows you some of the thinking that "bad" players make at these levels.  That can be invaluable when your trying to put a player on a hand range.</p>
<p>That, and as Graps said, if your playing a $5 game, Annette/SC Trojans, etc offer great advice.  But, they think along with table image, etc.  They think an advanced game.  Some of these elements just don't exist at the lower levels (and, though, I'm sure they could win at these levels if they wanted to, where is their motivation to do so).</p>
<p>I went from a breakeven player to a winning player mainly be reading this forum.  I've read/posted elsewhere, but the bulk has been here.  I've had all sorts of people answer my no name donkey posts.  I've been called everything from a great poster to a blundering idiot for my advice.  Sometimes the other player was wrong, sometimes it was me.  The thing is, I learned and incorporated play into my game.</p>
<p>There is acutally one thing I'd like to step on Graps and say I wish he added to the article here.  It's that every piece of advice you get will help you.  Some will hurt you.  I know shortly after joining this forum and incorporating some advice, I was losing money.  It took time and patience (and practice) to see what strategies worked in my games (at my level) and what didn't.  However, as I learned and got better, I improved.  It's sort of obvious advice, but it's something that a new lurker/poster here can get frustrated with.</p>
<p>That and keep posting.  So, your an idiot on a post. You post some bad advice and get called out on it.  You learn and go on.  Trust me, anyone who has over 500 posts in PD at some point gave horrible advice.  It wasn't done on purpose, it does happen.  Don't be embarrassed, admit your mistake and go on.  </p>
<p>Great article Graps.  It may fall on deaf ears, but it's articles like this why your stuff is must read.  Though, in some ways, since I play lower limits, you are making my life harder.  Anyone just reading your articles and incorporating your advice (with a little bit of intellegence) can win at the lower stakes, and dream of winning big.  You take them by the hand and walk them through step by step.  I really feel like I should send you $20 or something (don't hold your breath waiting for it though).</p>

[andressoprano whaddya think of my game?]

<p>^^^^^What he said</p>

[Rev.K]

<p>Reading hand histories and getting opinions on how to play a hand is my favorite part of P5s. There's a lot of people on here with some really interesting insights and really great advice and obviously they're not all pros. </p>
<p>I wish there was more thoughtful debate on hand histories. </p>

[MALS6]

<p>LOL at the "grammEr police"</p>

[haysuslizard]

<p>I have posted numerous HH in the format graps suggests.  Response is either 0 or several remarks that are completely awful advice, or are rude.  I have gotten some benefit from reading advice from top players to other top players.  </p>

[grapsfan Head Curmudgeon]

<p>Sorry, haysus, but 3 does not equal "numerous".  You got reasonable advice in 1, not much out of the other two.  That's a better average than I suggested at the start of the article.</p>
<p>Like Lordxixor suggests wisely (I'm not just saying he's wise because he likes my work, but flattery never hurts), you have to stick with it a little bit.  </p>
<p>One other thing I've mentioned in a few articles, but not in this one, is the more you give to the forum, the more you get back...this is true on every message board, not just P5s.  If you regularly get involved, create threads, and participate in discussions, the more people will help you when it's your turn to solicit information and ask for help.</p>

[Run 4 Shelter]

<p>Never learned anything on here, except who is winning what on the weekends and how to flame someone appropriately.  The best bennefit I get from P5s is a good laugh at least once a day, tis why I can't stay away!  Reading causes Cancer, didn't you know?</p>

[Elmseeker]

<p>It's not the reading that causes cancer it's the replying. I haven't been around P5 very much after signing up due a death in the family so have never posted. Besides I usually like to lurk for awhile and get to know some about the personalities found on forums before jumping in and saying anything but this article and discussion are so nice I felt I needed to say Thanks to Graps for this one.</p>
<p>I think the biggest problem for new posters, especially, is the fact that a lot of times some of the more established posters tend to ignore them or even be downright rude to them. I believe that quite a few people who respond to and/or post on forums don't see a person on the other end they just see words on a screen. If people would remember that those words aren't just computer generated junk, but another persons opinions, outlooks, aspirations or what have you the net could be a much better place overall. I am not saying we would achieve world peace, even face to face we've failed to do that in several thousand years of history, but I am saying that we could all have a much more enjoyable experience.</p>