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Article: Assign Your Opponent's Range - Not Your Own

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  1. grapsfan grapsfan is offline Head Curmudgeon

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    Sep 8th, 2009 (9/8/2009 9:44am)

     
  2. Brann6 Brann6 is offline

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    Sep 8th, 2009 (9/8/2009 11:39am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>Wrong, wrong, wrong...oh, so wrong.</p>
    <p>Now you're second-guessing yourself when you shouldn't!</p>
    <p>Unless you're playing against some super smart nth-level thinker who has you pegged for "STUPID", nine out of 10 times the villain's showing you A9 or a flushdraw here.</p>
    <p>Stop being results oriented! :)</p>
    <p>Brann</p>
  3. apology7 apology7 is offline Cake Poker PLB Champ

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    Sep 8th, 2009 (9/8/2009 12:10pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>meh, i disagree w/ this article</p>
    1 
  4. Skitz0Frenik Skitz0Frenik is offline

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    Sep 8th, 2009 (9/8/2009 1:00pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>Are you advocating a fold then? Your original reasoning still holds- this is a snap call given the context. This looks extremely results-oriented to me. The fact is 99% of players, especially in this type of game, won't play the "deuce" that way. If you were faced with that exact same situation again you still should not fold... </p>
  5. dgillis dgillis is offline Moderator

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    Sep 8th, 2009 (9/8/2009 1:19pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>IMO The article isn't about the outcome of the hand, its about how  he assigned his opponent's range and why his decision might be different if he had taken his own game out of the picture. Look carefully, I doubt seriously he would assign trips at 30% here but that number does illustrate his point quite well. I'm sure the number was chosen for dramatic affect. </p>
    <p>Don't get so lost in the answer that you cant find the question. </p>
     
  6. RevG RevG is offline

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    Sep 8th, 2009 (9/8/2009 1:20pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>He's not advocating a fold necessarily. He is just pointing out that you can not take a deuce out of his range. First of all he is in the blinds so a deuce is very likely and I see people shove trips here all the time. So if the guy hasn't gotten out of line or doesn't play draws aggressively then a fold is not out of the question.</p>
  7. j_farah j_farah is offline

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    Sep 8th, 2009 (9/8/2009 1:26pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>The example could be better, but the lesson (people play hands differently, so don't assume their range matches yours) is valid.</p>
  8. Brann6 Brann6 is offline

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    Sep 8th, 2009 (9/8/2009 1:49pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>The example overshadows what is an excellent lesson.</p>
  9. sherlock sherlock is offline

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    Sep 8th, 2009 (9/8/2009 2:28pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>Interesting read. </p>
    <p>I personally would give serious consideration to an all-in preflop re-raise, at least 50% of the time, in the situation you described.</p>
    <p>Players in these low buyin SnG's often raise preflop with with low pairs and weak aces. You are only behind to 4 hands - J's thru A's. If these hands call you, great and you are the favorite to double up. If they all fold, you win a nice pot and add to your stack.</p>
    <p>If you face an overpair, such is life. Register for the next SnG.</p>
  10. Jennifear Jennifear is online now

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    Sep 8th, 2009 (9/8/2009 2:42pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>I agree with the premise of the article.  It's important to understand that people don't always play like you do, and to see things through your opponent's eyes.</p>
    <p>Like the other commenters, I also call in the situation that graps' laid out.  I like assigning 10-20% to the 222 (it IS a multi-way pot after all, so there is indeed more chance that the 2 is protecting), and maybe 30-40% to the 9 (not necessarily A9, this could be 98).  The rest to clubs.</p>
    <p>If you look at the comments, I think that each of us assign different ranges to the villain.  I think this supports graps' main point.  A lot of players will look at the same hand and think different things.  It's up to us to determine what our opponent might be thinking, and to account forthe possibility that our opponent is taking a line that we would never personally take.</p>
    <p>The title says it all.  Assign your opponent's range, not your own.</p>
  11. Thalai Thalai is offline

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    Sep 8th, 2009 (9/8/2009 6:38pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>I also agree with the premise, but I think the example is a very bad one.</p>
    <p>Obv snapcall!</p>
    <p>It's obviously an important thing to consider that you are playing against your opponent, not against yourself. </p>
    <p>Anyway, I really like your articles and I'm happy every time I see your face on the main page, so keep doing plz :)</p>
     
  12. Dustymoe03 Dustymoe03 is offline

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    Sep 8th, 2009 (9/8/2009 7:59pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>1 question, I spent time at these $10 $20 buy-in 27man 18man 9man SNG's.  Maybe not as much as most or near but 1 thing I notice a standard raise or call with 10s and better you are asking for trouble.  There are to many players willing to limp or call a small raise with total junk just cause they dont know any better or it is their style.  I realize you dont want to end up agaisnt aa-jj but Why would you put yourself at risk here in such a scary position only starting at 1500 chips?  Thanks  JEN, GRAP, any one give me feedback here.</p>
  13. grapsfan grapsfan is offline Head Curmudgeon

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    Sep 8th, 2009 (9/8/2009 8:42pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>You guys did happen to notice that I picked numbers (specifically the 30% on a deuce) which turned the numbers from a snapcall to a borderline fold.</p>
    <p>In reality, I'm probably leaning more toward 10% on a deuce, 60-70% between the two club draws, and 20-30% toward A-9.  But those numbers don't make the discussion as interesting.</p>
    <p>Thanks for reading, everyone.</p>
     
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  14. Dustymoe03 Dustymoe03 is offline

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    Sep 8th, 2009 (9/8/2009 9:24pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>graps, why would a you just smooth call preflop with 1010 on this level? pure math, position, get more in the pot?  It appears as a chip burner in this POS on this level. Thanks</p>
  15. Lipton Lipton is offline never gets replies

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    Sep 8th, 2009 (9/8/2009 10:05pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>Personelly loved the article, Great Stuuf</p>
  16. felipebball felipebball is offline

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    Sep 9th, 2009 (9/9/2009 12:54am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>If were assuming that they aren't great thinking players, i've seen plenty of people at this level even smooth in the SB with AA, not that i would recommend it, or even 88 or 77 i've seen shoved in this spot at this level.  Not that shoving is a way to play it out, but JJ isn't a horrible hand to have in his range as well...just putting it out there..</p>
  17. roco415 roco415 is offline

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    Sep 9th, 2009 (9/9/2009 12:55am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>i feel like i was in this hand or at least at the table while this happened?? is there anyway to verify that...this hand seems so familiar- i think i saw you make a call like this and i was surprised you made it and got eliminated so early in the first levels because ive been seeing a lot in the 27 mans lately...</p>
  18. roco415 roco415 is offline

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    Sep 9th, 2009 (9/9/2009 1:03am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>edit: "you a lot lately"</p>
  19. Jennifear Jennifear is online now

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    Sep 9th, 2009 (9/9/2009 5:23am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>I'm such a grapsfan mark</p>
  20. alekhine11 alekhine11 is offline

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    Sep 9th, 2009 (9/9/2009 12:57pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>Why is this a snap call?</p>
    <p>No one is taking into account JJ+ on villain´s range not even OP.</p>
    <p>Really,so so bad.</p>
  21. Willrr Willrr is offline

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    Sep 9th, 2009 (9/9/2009 4:13pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>how is having 56% equity here make it a borderline fold? I understand what you're trying to say but if you have 56% equity against a really strong range folding is just dumb in this spot. ever. </p>
     
  22. grapsfan grapsfan is offline Head Curmudgeon

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    Sep 9th, 2009 (9/9/2009 9:27pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>Will, I was trying to write out that my opponent has 56% equity in the pot...I have the remaining 44% against the assigned range, which makes right at the point the pot is offering me from a cEV perspective.</p>
     
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  23. voo-doo voo-doo is offline

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    Sep 10th, 2009 (9/10/2009 8:42am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>all these obv snap calls?? that is why it is so good now to over bet/ shove trips or sets etc on the flop when involved in a RAISED multi-way pot [some mug will call,even more so when the flop is low 2 suited as most will assign your range to something they can beat]</p>
    <p>it is almost like the zeebo theorem in that players find it very difficult to fold over pairs, 2 pair hands on the flop or strong flush draw hands...</p>
  24. a11infish a11infish is offline

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    Sep 10th, 2009 (9/10/2009 11:08am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>I'm reading this article and the first thing I thought was the dude had a deuce.  I've seen this play a million times on the internet.  Your stupid call is the reason they keep on playing this way.  </p>
  25. sherlock sherlock is offline

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    Sep 10th, 2009 (9/10/2009 1:52pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>Which is why, a11infish, I would have moved allin on the flop 50% or so of the time as I will be ahead most of the time I do this (behind to 4 hands only) and I will not likely be ahead on the flop, if several players see it.</p>
    <p>I love to see my allin called by a guy holding an A,2 - most of the time having only 1 of at most 3 remaining aces as an out.</p>
    <p>This hand is not a diffilcult one at all to play.</p>
  26. sherlock sherlock is offline

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    Sep 10th, 2009 (9/10/2009 1:57pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>edit "allin preflop"!!!</p>
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