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Article: Poker Homework: ICM Application

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  1. grapsfan grapsfan is offline Head Curmudgeon

    Rosemount, MN
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    Jan 30th, 2009 (1/30/2009 9:59am)

     
  2. thelandlord thelandlord is offline

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    Feb 4th, 2009 (2/4/2009 11:38pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>well said sir  lil too complicated for me</p>
     
  3. kasilof kasilof is offline

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    Feb 5th, 2009 (2/5/2009 1:04am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>Great article.  However, in regards to the AKo hand.  I think would make this call.  If you fold you might win the battle but not the war.   With so many ICM players out there now, by calling you hurt yourself and you hurt the one pushing.  Thus if the player is someone you recognize as a multitabling ICM bot player,  you might take a -EV for this SNG, however in the long run when you come across this player again in future SNGs he might be making a mistake pushing against your range, thus he might fold.</p>
  4. Chickenbrad Chickenbrad is offline

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    Feb 5th, 2009 (2/5/2009 2:39am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>Now I remember why I like cash games more than tournaments</p>
  5. Autolobotomist Autolobotomist is offline playing air is my style? so what

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    Feb 5th, 2009 (2/5/2009 3:39am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>Here's how I know this is a rad article. I haven't made it past the "However, we also have to include our odds of winning the hand.  If the SB is shoving with any two cards (and they should be), we’re a 65:35 favorite, according to PokerStove." part and I've got Stove, Wiz and an online ICM calculator open. I'm gonna go read the article.</p>
  6. TMLMS13 TMLMS13 is online now

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    Feb 5th, 2009 (2/5/2009 3:43am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>you have to play ton of volume to notice that these decisions actually are profitable.</p>
    <p>And, in the sng how come you never assinged a % of finishing 4th. Knowing me that guy will 800 chips will double up 4 times and I will bubble.</p>
  7. LiveAction LiveAction is offline

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    Feb 5th, 2009 (2/5/2009 4:18am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>"And, in the sng how come you never assinged a % of finishing 4th. Knowing me that guy will 800 chips will double up 4 times and I will bubble"</p>
    <p>You may want to read again. In the AK hand we cover the SB who is shoving. If we win then SB is out in 4th and that leaves us playing for top three spots.</p>
  8. dgillis dgillis is offline Moderator

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    Feb 5th, 2009 (2/5/2009 5:52am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>VWP sir, it's tough putting that into an easy to understand format, great job IMO. VN article. </p>
     
  9. lordxixor101 lordxixor101 is offline

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    Feb 5th, 2009 (2/5/2009 7:09am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>Since I like Grapsfan, I feel like I need to be nitpicky with one slight point here.</p>
    <p>It is correct for the SB to push IF he assumes that the bb (you) understand ICM theory, and will make correct ICM folds.  If your in a $10 game, and your opponent looks at A2, figures your pushing ATC, he's ahead, and calling, then you have to rethink.  Because, though you may be correct in pushing there technically, the person who ended up with the most equity is really the 800 chip stack, who goes from finishing 4th most of the time to now finishing 3rd most of the time (or a guaranteed third).  </p>
    <p>For low limit SNG's, ICM is great for making folding/calling deciisions.  You need to think a bit harder about pushing decisions (since ICM pushing decisions are based on what the other person should call with, not what they will call with).</p>
  10. kwkramer kwkramer is offline

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    Feb 5th, 2009 (2/5/2009 7:58am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>thanks a lot lord xixor for that info... i basically knew that but putting it into words was very helpful</p>
  11. HeHateThee HeHateThee is offline

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    Feb 5th, 2009 (2/5/2009 9:30am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>Great article, great game theory. Thanks for giving me something to think about. </p>
  12. BigStack Husker BigStack Husker is offline

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    Feb 5th, 2009 (2/5/2009 10:09am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>There's a reason I dropped out of college. Thanks for nothin grapsfan. : )</p>
  13. grapsfan grapsfan is offline Head Curmudgeon

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    Feb 5th, 2009 (2/5/2009 5:04pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>TMLMS13, I did include the possibility of coming in 4th.  35% + 45% + 15% = 95%...the 5% left over is the chance you go out in 4th.  Since you get paid $0, there's no reason to show it.</p>
    <p>Lord's right that someone's shoving range against you may be dictated by whether or not they perceive you as being a math player or not.  The math would change considerably if their range was different than ATC...you're not a 65:35 favorite anymore.  You're probably farther ahead if you're removing the non-Broadway cards from their range, meaning it's a better call.</p>
     
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  14. r9r9r9r9 r9r9r9r9 is offline

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    Feb 6th, 2009 (2/6/2009 2:19pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>doesnt really matter whenu continually get called with rank hands+get busted with some 2 outer on the river......so bugger icm+pokerstove+wiz as well...u just gotta go with your gut instinct</p>
  15. StudentOfBlaze StudentOfBlaze is offline

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    Feb 9th, 2009 (2/9/2009 4:13am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>my brain just exploded</p>
  16. greenpepper greenpepper is offline

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    Feb 21st, 2009 (2/21/2009 9:59pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>Lord, your comment just added so much to the article it should be added as an editors note...TY</p>
    <p>Also as usual Grapsfan shows a great deal of high quality poker authoring...Ty so much for your contribution, its always appreciated </p>
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