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Article: The Worst Play in No Limit Hold'em

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  1. grapsfan grapsfan is offline Head Curmudgeon

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    Jan 13th, 2009 (1/13/2009 12:13pm)

     
  2. OMGEuroGrind OMGEuroGrind is offline

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    Jan 13th, 2009 (1/13/2009 12:30pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>nice article, but I dont think so that call is always the worth solution, a lot of depend on specific situation. for example I am UTG with AA and I limp because know behind me is ultra psycho agrro moron, so its good spot get extra chips when limp/3bet</p>
  3. darrick00 darrick00 is offline

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    Jan 13th, 2009 (1/13/2009 12:43pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>solid article graps.</p>
  4. OnUrBikeSon OnUrBikeSon is offline Scammer

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    Jan 13th, 2009 (1/13/2009 12:59pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>u contradicted yourself, u said that there are many good reasons to limp pre then said "Not knowing whether to raise or fold, and therefore calling, is indecision at its very dumbest"</p>
    <p>........</p>
  5. meaneye meaneye is offline

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    Jan 13th, 2009 (1/13/2009 1:18pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>He didn't contradict himself... he is saying if your going to limp, limp for the right reasons, have a reason to limp .... don't limp because you don't know whether to fold or to raise. (And no that isn't a reason)</p>
     
  6. evang evang is offline

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    Jan 13th, 2009 (1/13/2009 2:01pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>"A call is the best play available to you in this hand, in this particular tournament."</p>
    <p>In no way, shape, or form have you convinced me that this is the 'best' play lol.  I don't think that was the best example.</p>
  7. Braaak Braaak is offline

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    Jan 13th, 2009 (1/13/2009 2:27pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>Thanks Graps.  Good thoughts as always.</p>
    <p>YourTimeIsUp wrote an interesting variation on this in a post modestly titled "my gift to pocket fives" or something like that a while back. </p>
  8. Faecal Matter Faecal Matter is offline

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    Jan 13th, 2009 (1/13/2009 3:20pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>I didn't read the whole article but does Chris Ferguson really beleive you should never call a bet pre-flop? only raise or fold? I find that hard to believe. If its true then wtf that's ridiculous. obviously playing aggressive is important but if you completely remove the option of calling then you'll be losing a lot of value and making a lot of mistakes in a lot of situations.</p>
    <p>?????</p>
     
  9. ricardogcl ricardogcl is offline

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    Jan 13th, 2009 (1/13/2009 3:25pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>i think open limp is only good in some paticular and rare ocasions.</p>
    <p>like open limping with strng holding at first level of play late position.</p>
    <p>however, after blinds increase, there is no reason to limp whatsoever.</p>
    <p>now, to not flat call a opponent preflop raise is just insane talking.</p>
    <p>u would want to flat for all kind of reasons</p>
    <p>mix your play, hide the strength of your hand, float, etc etc etc.</p>
    <p>i really dont beleive a player like ferguson would confirm that theory these days (2009)... maybe he wasnt that good a player that time, who knows....</p>
    <p>i mean, u have 100b, someone opens in front of u for std 3 bb... should u always raise this opponent with medium pocket pairs???? that cant be right. actually, if u play like that all the time, ull lose the chance of stacking your opponent those times u hit trips and he has Aces\Kings.</p>
    <p>plz, dont tell me fold.</p>
     
  10. grapsfan grapsfan is offline Head Curmudgeon

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    Jan 13th, 2009 (1/13/2009 3:30pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>OMGEuro, I never said that a limp was the worst play.  Please re-read the article.</p>
    <p>Evan, if you'd prefer to raise there, that's fine.  But typically you raise to build a pot based on strength of hand & position, and to thin the field.  In the example I gave, you're achieving neither.  I appreciate you giving so much detail in your rebuttal argument, though.  Thanks for taking the time to comment.</p>
     
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  11. Micdiddy Micdiddy is offline

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    Jan 13th, 2009 (1/13/2009 3:43pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>So, something Ferguson did 8 years ago in poker is now outdated?W0W!</p>
    <p> I think the first few paragraphs of this article are unfair, since obviously the game evolves and I'm sure Jesus knows that. Can you cite the last time he said to never call pre-flop? If it was fairly recent I'd be extremely surprised.</p>
  12. grapsfan grapsfan is offline Head Curmudgeon

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    Jan 13th, 2009 (1/13/2009 3:59pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>One paragraph, the second of the article, equals the first few paragraphs?  Huh.</p>
    <p>Micdiddy, how surprised are you that it was last year, in the FTP Strategy Guide?</p>
    <p>Ferguson wrote Chapter 3: "How To Bet".  The entirety of this chapter is about his "raise or fold" philosophy.  He admits that he's changed to a weakened version of this style, where he'll limp if someone limps after, or call if someone raises.  But he still discourages calling.</p>
    <p>I'm disappointed so many of you think I was talking out of my ass when I wrote about Ferguson's philosophy on pre-flop play.</p>
    <p>And I'm disappointed that so many of you missed the point of the article.  I did something wrong in writing it.  I'll try to do better next time.</p>
     
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  13. duclover duclover is offline

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    Jan 13th, 2009 (1/13/2009 4:34pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>Nice article Graps. I thought it was clear what your point was. I understood 100% Give it time and you'll see more positive comments</p>
  14. dgillis dgillis is offline Moderator

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    Jan 13th, 2009 (1/13/2009 5:40pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>I think you did fine, it does require that you read the entire article to get the big picture... anyway I agree... its impossible to make a blanket statement like you should never smooth call, game is to complicated for any if\then logic to always be true.</p>
     
  15. AAR1388 AAR1388 is offline

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    Jan 13th, 2009 (1/13/2009 5:44pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>solid article IMO</p>
  16. conan99 conan99 is offline

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    Jan 13th, 2009 (1/13/2009 6:15pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>having the kahunas too go against one of the all times greats cardinal rule is impressive imo. obv some of you did not read the entire article which makes it point less too comment. obv online tourneys are a different animal and the situation graps referred too certainly deserves a call. he also stated that if you are indesisive.. just fold..pretty simple..i dont know if i could have laid it out there too the community like graps did .well done....and p5ver newbs fyi you need too read graps articles twice..there usually deep and over my own head lol</p>
  17. toolray toolray is offline

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    Jan 13th, 2009 (1/13/2009 7:04pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>I read the same thing from Jesus, but I think he said he never called preflop except in the blinds-not a huge difference but shows he did change up a little</p>
  18. Chasrg Chasrg is offline

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    Jan 13th, 2009 (1/13/2009 7:44pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>I agree graps, he has always said to raise or fold.  I also love how you rip the crappy responses to shreds.  I'd do the same imo.</p>
  19. soccerfreakjj10 soccerfreakjj10 is offline

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    Jan 13th, 2009 (1/13/2009 8:46pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>i really liked this article, solid advice.</p>
  20. Tim Lock Tim Lock is offline

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    Jan 13th, 2009 (1/13/2009 9:27pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>I ate a big, red candle.</p>
  21. NitroHUN NitroHUN is offline

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    Jan 14th, 2009 (1/14/2009 3:35am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>I totally agree with calling AK or AQ there. There's no way to even thin the field to heads-up, and you'll most likely end up with a pot of 15-20bb's when the stacks are only 90-100bb's. So basically, if you flop TPTK, and one of your opponents flop a set, 2pair, or a combodraw (highly likely), you will have to push in at least on the turn, or lay down a strong hand with one third of your chips gone away. C-betting a rag flop is more worse, cause youre opponents are mainly calling stations. The only thing you can hope for is a str8 or trips, but you can do the same by limping, you're monster will be paid of either way. I think it is ridiculous to commit yourself on the first level with AQ off.</p>
    <p>Nice article btw!</p>
  22. lordxixor101 lordxixor101 is offline

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    Jan 14th, 2009 (1/14/2009 5:56am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>Another nice article.  For those that question Fergeson's philosophy though (even if he doesn't use it now), it really does have some merits.  Early in my online playing days, I went a month where I followed this (never call, raise or fold).  It works amazingly well at keeping you out of those hands that are extremely difficult decisions.  Do I want to play K10off, well, I don't want to raise with it, so I fold.  </p>
    <p>Do I want to re-reaise AJ with blinds still to act with a tight raiser, nope, I fold.  AK, I reraise.</p>
    <p>I have actually suggested players who struggle here to adopt that philosophy for a handful of games.  Many have come back posting that it changes their game.</p>
    <p>For the record, I thnk that limping is the best play at times.  But, outside of early in tournaments where your getting implied odds, you need to be careful.  I usually use the philosophy that I need to be very sure I know what I'm doing to limp.  I'd much rather be wrong with a raise or wrong with a fold than wrong with a limp (since folding, at least the hand is over, and you live to play another, with a raise, you can win the hand right there or get a very good idea on where you stand at least).</p>
  23. racer racer is offline

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    Jan 14th, 2009 (1/14/2009 8:38am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>another nice article graps, keep em coming</p>
  24. FullTrick FullTrick is offline

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    Jan 14th, 2009 (1/14/2009 8:52am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>Please have a look on nbc heads up 08...Ferguson only check-calls against agro players like ivey and bloch...he may have changed his mind??</p>
  25. grapsfan grapsfan is offline Head Curmudgeon

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    Jan 14th, 2009 (1/14/2009 10:21am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>"I'd much rather be wrong with a raise or wrong with a fold than wrong with a limp."</p>
    <p>Thanks for distilling 900 words into 18.  Makes me feel like I'm wasting my time...lol.</p>
    <p>Trick, I think heads-up play is entirely different, especially in the game theory mind of someone like Ferguson.  I've never seen him write or talk specifically about heads-up, so I don't know for sure.</p>
     
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  26. JC_Illini68 JC_Illini68 is offline

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    Jan 14th, 2009 (1/14/2009 10:47am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>lordxixor may have summed it up in 18 words, but nonetheless a good article.  I liked your AK small blind situation.  I've been playing those tourneys recently and the exact situation continue to pop up.  Thanks again!</p>
  27. FabulousTexan FabulousTexan is offline

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    Jan 14th, 2009 (1/14/2009 6:45pm) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>I wonder if some people disagree with all poker articles just for the attention.</p>
    <p>Yes, Graps knows that Ferguson has evolved his raise or fold mentallity. In the FTP Strategy Guide Ferguson admits that he has adjusted his raise or fold style. It's been several months since I read it and I'm too lazy to go look it back up, but I think wrote that he now has three versions of what he calls "strong style". In one of the versions he does call raises in position rather than re-raise. But he never opens a pot with a limp. He says he isn't as high on playing small pairs and suited connectors as a lot of people. But if you play them, he advises raising with them rather than limping because it disguises them when you do hit.</p>
    <p>The point of the article wasn't Graps challenging Chris Ferguson's philosophy. It was that you should have a reason for raising and a reason for limping.</p>
    <p>As a fan of Ferguson, I think Ferguson would agree.</p>
  28. sunishnyc sunishnyc is offline

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    Jan 15th, 2009 (1/15/2009 8:31am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>limping or flatting when we are obviously far ahead of the limpers ranges and when they will pay us off with worse is just very poor poker.</p>
    <p>Open limping went out years ago and unless you are in some magicaly deep online spot you are just playing weak scared poker...</p>
    <p>As Dr. Bakes says... POKERSTOVE...determine ranges and act accordingly...not raising cause we are afraid of playing post against worst hand is lighting cash on fire</p>
     
  29. brad2002tj brad2002tj is offline

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    Jan 15th, 2009 (1/15/2009 8:42am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>SSMTT 4 lyfe.</p>
     
  30. thebigeasy59 thebigeasy59 is offline

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    Jan 15th, 2009 (1/15/2009 9:57am) in reply to grapsfan

    <p>go back to 2p2 imo</p>
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