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  1. I feel like I played this hand wrong and had no plan other than to check fold on the river unless my miracle came. I had no history with the villain either.



    Pokerstars
    Hold'em No Limit - Zoom $1/$2

    Powered by Pokercube

    Hero's cards J J

    Preflop
    Hero Post SB $1, Big Blind Post BB $2, Under The Gun Folds, Hijack Raise $6, Cutoff Folds, Dealer Folds, Hero Raise $15, Big Blind Folds, Hijack Call $15

    Flop Q A K
    Hero Bet $12, Hijack Call $12

    Turn 9
    Hero Bet $16, Hijack Call $16

    River T
    Hero Bet $52.6, Hijack Call $52.6

    Showdown
    Hero shows J J
    Hijack shows Q A
    Hero Collects $190.4

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  2. If he jams turn you have to fold, but I think you bet the right amount on turn to allow this, many times a double barrel works if he missed his flush or just floated with q or k in hand, he probably folds. As you said, the problem is if you miss your card on riv, then you have to check/fold or shove, but obv you know you are behind at that point so you are just hoping if you shove that he is folding second pair or a weak ace. The problem with airing the riv and checking is that you basically give up on the hand, and he knows this, and he will shove.

    Tough hand, but nice river!
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  3. personally I 3bet pre here to 20-24 range for value. If we get a flat (which im sure we will) im shutting down on flop (ck/f). Super drawy and it smashes his range (we have to assume this crushes his range considering hes an unknown). We lose 20-24 and move on. Sux not being able to cbet but this board is too wet and I don't like bloating a pot OOP to begin with.
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  4. some hud stats would be suppppper helpful for a spot like this. also, why are you only sitting with 50bb stack? do you always short stack? i would generally advise to sit for the max, unless you're playing some other strategy here. since most 6m cash hands are 100bb deep i'm going to do the whole analysis as if we were 100bb deep.

    vs a good reg i think this is actually probably pretty close pre between 3betting and flatting. if he's opening the button or cutoff it's obviously a super easy 3b, but when he opens utg+1 here i think i prefer flatting. for starters, a lot of regs ranges are pretty tight from this position, and second a lot of them aren't peeling 3bs that wide in these positions. this is why hud stats are so important here, if he's only opening 12% here then i think it's def better to flat...if he's opening upwards of 20% then you can make a 3b work. If this is some random fish obviously all this is out the window (and since we're actually 50bb deep in this hand it's probably fine to try to 3b/get this in pre)

    anyway, regardless of stack depth, you definitely need to be 3b bigger here, like a LOT bigger. we're oop here, def make it at least 20 here. this is a pretty awful flop for us (although your sizing was so small that his entire pre-flop range is gonna call), there's a ton of big Ax hands in his range that are obviously not folding...and a lot of Kx hands like KTs KJs KQ that aren't gonna fold either. really the only thing you get folds from are smaller pocket pairs. if this is vs a reg and we're trying to be at least somewhat balanced in this spot then i don't think we should c/f this hand, we have a bunch of equity wiht the gutter, backdoor diamonds, and plus we have JT blockers...so this is def a hand i would choose to be bluffing with on this board. vs a random fish where we don't really need to worry about balance at all then i'd be c/f this flop.

    i think your cbet is also too small for your range (in other words, when we have AK or AA KK QQ here we want to be betting bigger, so when wer'e bluffing we should be betting bigger)...(although... with your actual hand in this one time spot your sizing is actually probably good because it will get lower pocket pairs to fold, but i digress)

    i'm gonna say i don't like the turn bet, there's just too many hands in his range that aren't going to fold. your sizing is pretty small too, which will make more hands want to peel, as every hand has a gutter to go with their pair. now i'm gonna do the math and see:
    i'm gonna assume that he calls the flop with this range: AKo-AJo,KQo-KJo,AQs-ATs,KQs-KTs,QJs ....seems pretty reasonable. i made the assumption that he 4b AKs (which he mayyyy not, but he also is probably going to raise AK on the flop some % of the time. i actually think raising AK on this flop is bad, but that's another argument)...ok so i also left out JJ and QQ because i think those hands either raise flop or get it in pre some %. some people might fold QJs on the flop, but that's only 4 combos and honestly leaving it is gonna help your turn bet here, so let's see:

    that's 45 combos total. if we bet the turn here i'm going to assume that he's going to fold all KJ/KT combos as well as his QJ combos. you bet $16 into a pot of $56, so you need to get folds 22% of the time to make this a profitable bet. out of the 45 combos in his range, the KJ/KT/QJ hands make up 11 combos...so that means he's folding 25% of the time. so good job, it's profitable to bet here (albeit barely, but hey, profit is profit!)....BUT we have a problem....your sizing. you only bet $16 into $56...he's getting 4.5:1 to call here. if he has a hand like KJ or KT or QJ he has a pair and a gutter, so he certainly might call here getting that kind of price. if he is calling with literally 1 of those 11 combos of hands...then our bet is only breakeven. if he calls with 2 combos, you guessed it, it's a -ev bet. now here the turn was the 9c...well what if it was the 9s. if it was the 9s then a hand like KJss KTss or QJss also has a flush draw to go with their pair and their gutter...i can't imagine this hand folds. so in this case this would definitely be a -ev bet.

    now, you barreled the 9c, not the 9s, so maybe you realized this...but i would think most players wouldn't be considering that this small difference could be the make or break between +ev and -ev...but when were' talking about a spot where only 1 or 2 combos makes a difference then it definitely can!

    finally...this is assuming that he calls with KJo pre here. if is folding KJo to the 3b then he obviously can't call the flop with it, and then he only folds the turn 17% of the time...certainly a -ev bet (and that's assuming he folds KJs and KTs always, which we already know is not true)

    your turn sizing is again too small for your range.When you have AA KK QQ type hands you really want to be building this pot so you should be betting bigger and setting the pot up so you can get stacks in on the river.


    hope that all made sense!
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  5. Like the analysis. When I am playing a short session I usually sit short. If I plan to play ZOOM for a bit, I will sit with a full stack and try to build it up. I have no HUD stats on the villain as mentioned in the OP. I agree this would have been helpful.
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  6. great post gags; however

    I think the 3bet sizing pre is perfectly fine. In fact, since this is zoom, you have 50bbs, and we have no prior reads, I think it's a clear mistake to 3bet anything over $18. Like if he's facing a $14 reraise he's going to fold out a lot of his range that we want him calling with. Why would he donk call KJ, K10, QJ 44 55 etc when he can measly click fold and receive another hand within a second? 3betting to $15 (to nitpick I make it $16 lol) entices him to call with his entire opening range.

    Post flop you pretty much butchered this. Like gags said, when we have our premiums here AA, KK, QQ, AK, we're tryin to get that money in, not baby it.

    If I'm planning on bluffing more than 1 street, my chips are in on the turn.

    A) Make it $22 on the flop and jam turn. Pot on turn should be $76 leaving you with a $58 shove. Since we're a random, this is a relatively stnd play with AA, KK, QQ, AK. He'll fold most of his range that floats you on the flop. If you get called you still have outs.

    B) Bet $22 on flop, c/f turn. Seems weak, but won't hate.

    I really can't decide on what I think about a triple barrel bluff. I've gone back and forth, back and forth, and have just decided to KISS that bitch (keep it simple stupid) when you're a random against a random in zoom with no prior history, then just go with A here. Would love to hear thoughts on a triple barrel bluff, just seems weird idk.
    Edited By: Shrubbery Nov 14th, 2013 at 12:23 PM
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  7. I like the discussion here. Even though I am profitable in ZOOM, there are hands I misplay all the time. I will try to post a few more before I leave for the states or save them up so I can spread them out a little.

    Thank you everyone for the comments, keep them coming! :)
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  8.  
    Originally Posted by Shrubbery View Post

    great post gags; however

    I think the 3bet sizing pre is perfectly fine. In fact, since this is zoom, you have 50bbs, and we have no prior reads, I think it's a clear mistake to 3bet anything over $18. Like if he's facing a $14 reraise he's going to fold out a lot of his range that we want him calling with. Why would he donk call KJ, K10, QJ 44 55 etc when he can measly click fold and receive another hand within a second? 3betting to $15 (to nitpick I make it $16 lol) entices him to call with his entire opening range.

    Post flop you pretty much butchered this. Like gags said, when we have our premiums here AA, KK, QQ, AK, we're tryin to get that money in, not baby it.

    If I'm planning on bluffing more than 1 street, my chips are in on the turn.

    A) Make it $22 on the flop and jam turn. Pot on turn should be $76 leaving you with a $58 shove. Since we're a random, this is a relatively stnd play with AA, KK, QQ, AK. He'll fold most of his range that floats you on the flop. If you get called you still have outs.

    B) Bet $22 on flop, c/f turn. Seems weak, but won't hate.

    I really can't decide on what I think about a triple barrel bluff. I've gone back and forth, back and forth, and have just decided to KISS that bitch (keep it simple stupid) when you're a random against a random in zoom with no prior history, then just go with A here. Would love to hear thoughts on a triple barrel bluff, just seems weird idk.


    it's way too small for only 50bb deep. villain's range isn't that wide to begin with; when we give him nearly 3.5:1 him calling with any hand in his range is going to be +ev for him.

    so we 3b because we would like to see a call here from weaker hands...but we want him to be making -ev plays, hence why we have to size it bigger we're only going to have an overpair around 46% of the time, and due to his tight range, he hits basically every one of those boards where there's an overcard, and can make the hand very difficult to play...so if he's going to call, we certainly want him to be paying to draw to his hand.
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  9.  
    Originally Posted by Gags30 View Post

    it's way too small for only 50bb deep. villain's range isn't that wide to begin with; when we give him nearly 3.5:1 him calling with any hand in his range is going to be +ev for him.

    so we 3b because we would like to see a call here from weaker hands...but we want him to be making -ev plays, hence why we have to size it bigger we're only going to have an overpair around 46% of the time, and due to his tight range, he hits basically every one of those boards where there's an overcard, and can make the hand very difficult to play...so if he's going to call, we certainly want him to be paying to draw to his hand.

    want to save this spot for later for counter arguement, gotta study next 4 hrs tho sadly
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  10.  
    Originally Posted by Gags30 View Post

    some hud stats would be suppppper helpful for a spot like this. also, why are you only sitting with 50bb stack? do you always short stack? i would generally advise to sit for the max, unless you're playing some other strategy here. since most 6m cash hands are 100bb deep i'm going to do the whole analysis as if we were 100bb deep.

    vs a good reg i think this is actually probably pretty close pre between 3betting and flatting def agree, infact if he's a good reg I'm flatting, unless history tells me otherwise

    if he's opening the button or cutoff it's obviously a super easy 3b, but when he opens utg+1 here i think i prefer flatting. for starters, a lot of regs ranges are pretty tight from this position, and second a lot of them aren't peeling 3bs that wide in these positions. this is why hud stats are so important here, if he's only opening 12% here then i think it's def better to flat...if he's opening upwards of 20% then you can make a 3b work. If this is some random fish obviously all this is out the window (and since we're actually 50bb deep in this hand it's probably fine to try to 3b/get this in pre)

    What do you put his 4bet shove range as? Or his 4bet raise if he elects to make it like $25 after OP made it $15? I've never played zoom so it's a different arena for me but I can only imagine he's not going crazy, and he's only 4bet/4bet jamming AK, QQ+. Seem's kind of absurd for other hands to be in that range



    anyway, regardless of stack depth, you definitely need to be 3b bigger here, like a LOT bigger. we're oop here, def make it at least 20 here. this is a pretty awful flop for us (although your sizing was so small that his entire pre-flop range is gonna call),

    Don't we want this though? Don't we want his entire opening range to flat us pre. Making it $20 ($14 more for him to go, will fold out a ton of his range imo because A) this is zoom B) he only started with 50bbs, I can see the guy calling wider against a bigger stack but against a 50bb stack 3betting from the sb, $14 more is just extremely spewy for him to peel off weaker hands. His implied odds aren't great. Therefore, like I said, I don't hate his 3bet because he's getting the guys whole range to call which of course we want this to happen because we're ahead of that range. Now like I said, I don't have experience in zoom, what's the average random's opening range there in your opinion?

    there's a ton of big Ax hands (how many of these Ax hands fold to a $14 raise instead of a $9, I'd have to assume a lot) in his range that are obviously not folding...and a lot of Kx hands like KTs KJs KQ that aren't gonna fold either. really the only thing you get folds from are smaller pocket pairs. if this is vs a reg and we're trying to be at least somewhat balanced in this spot then i don't think we should c/f this hand, we have a bunch of equity wiht the gutter, backdoor diamonds, and plus we have JT blockers...so this is def a hand i would choose to be bluffing with on this board. vs a random fish where we don't really need to worry about balance at all then i'd be c/f this flop. [B]As played with the smallish 3bet pre, what's your plan for bluffing. What's your sizing?/B]

    i think your cbet is also too small for your range (in other words, when we have AK or AA KK QQ here we want to be betting bigger, so when wer'e bluffing we should be betting bigger)...(although... with your actual hand in this one time spot your sizing is actually probably good because it will get lower pocket pairs to fold, but i digress)

    i'm gonna say i don't like the turn bet, there's just too many hands in his range that aren't going to fold. your sizing is pretty small too, which will make more hands want to peel, as every hand has a gutter to go with their pair. now i'm gonna do the math and see:
    i'm gonna assume that he calls the flop with this range: AKo-AJo,KQo-KJo,AQs-ATs,KQs-KTs,QJs ....seems pretty reasonable. i made the assumption that he 4b AKs (which he mayyyy not, but he also is probably going to raise AK on the flop some % of the time. i actually think raising AK on this flop is bad, but that's another argument)(agree)...ok so i also left out JJ (think you mean KK here) and QQ because i think those hands either raise flop or get it in pre some %. some people might fold QJs on the flop, but that's only 4 combos and honestly leaving it is gonna help your turn bet here, so let's see:

    Why does AK check back while KK QQ bets? I also think QQ, KK get's it in pre but since you brought the scenario up I'm curious. Are you saying they raise flop because there's one more Ax in our range since villian doesn't have the ace. Pretty thin to draw that line there. For KK QQ AK, if i was villen, I'd flat flop with intentions of getting it in on turn. We're still getting it in the majority of the time against AK AQ, maybe AJ. By raising flop with QQ KK, you lose all double barrel bluffs and potentially a call all in over b/s on turn with hands such as QJ, KJ, K10... although these hands are rarely taking this line but can't ever discount it. Reasons those hands are more inclined to call river because pott odds are better and too much money of their money is in there (as many fish might think)

    that's 45 combos total. if we bet the turn here i'm going to assume that he's going to fold all KJ/KT combos as well as his QJ combos. you bet $16 into a pot of $56, so you need to get folds 22% of the time to make this a profitable bet. out of the 45 combos in his range, the KJ/KT/QJ hands make up 11 combos...so that means he's folding 25% of the time. so good job, it's profitable to bet here (albeit barely, but hey, profit is profit!)....BUT we have a problem....your sizing. you only bet $16 into $56...he's getting 4.5:1 to call here. if he has a hand like KJ or KT or QJ he has a pair and a gutter, so he certainly might call here getting that kind of price. if he is calling with literally 1 of those 11 combos of hands...then our bet is only breakeven. if he calls with 2 combos, you guessed it, it's a -ev bet. now here the turn was the 9c...well what if it was the 9s. if it was the 9s then a hand like KJss KTss or QJss also has a flush draw to go with their pair and their gutter...i can't imagine this hand folds. so in this case this would definitely be a -ev bet. (verrry well put)

    now, you barreled the 9c, not the 9s, so maybe you realized this...but i would think most players wouldn't be considering that this small difference could be the make or break between +ev and -ev...but when were' talking about a spot where only 1 or 2 combos makes a difference then it definitely can!

    finally...this is assuming that he calls with KJo pre here. if is folding KJo to the 3b then he obviously can't call the flop with it, and then he only folds the turn 17% of the time...certainly a -ev bet (and that's assuming he folds KJs and KTs always, which we already know is not true)

    your turn sizing is again too small for your range.When you have AA KK QQ type hands you really want to be building this pot so you should be betting bigger and setting the pot up so you can get stacks in on the river. (Can you justify a triple barrel bluff here? I've had a hard time justifying it with you wanting to increase the bet size pre, on the flop (which obv it should), and on the turn. Like I said before, If you raise to $20 pre and get the exact same spot, what's your liine? Including bet sizing. If you raised to $15 pre, what's your line post?)


    hope that all made sense!

    lookin forward to the response
    Edited By: Shrubbery Nov 15th, 2013 at 04:16 AM
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  11. Seems like the leader board has had a massive impact on increasing the volume and quality of awesome comments and discussion. Great work P5s!

    Before I read the other comments I am usually flatting this hand in Zoom simply because ranges are so much tighter, even in 6 max and against LAG players I'm going to get 4 bet too much and have to fold and well, I don't like to fold.

    Here on the flop it becomes a simple fold.

    I get that at a higher level this is probably too weak, but at 0.5/1 and lower and especially if you are multi-tabling I just take the lowest variance approach.

    Time we are 3 betting I 3 bet bigger and I c-bet bigger then CF the turn.

    His play is pretty weak, it looks as though he thinks he is beat all the way and is just calling down hoping for the best when h doesn't raise the turn and especially when he calls the river.
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  12. for the future, just break up my quote and respond to each section...when you type in the quote like that then i can't quote you and it makes it hard to respond to...

    anyway:

    only 50bb deep i don't really know what his 4b range is. some people it's as wide as like a LOT of hands, and others it's going to still be very tight. i think vs the average reg we can definitely 3b/get this in for 50bb. i really was talking about wanting to flat this if we were 100bb deep.

    on the surface, i understand how you would think 'we want his whole range to call us'...because it sounds great to play a bigger pot when he has a range that we're ahead of. and against a weaker player who is going to make a lot of mistakes and chase gutters and stuff like that then there is some merit to this. but against a player with literally any amount of brain at all then we run into some problems. as i mentioned earlier, he's getting 3.5:1 on his money here. villain can profitably call with a hand like KQo and fold when he misses and only put money in when he hits top pair, and this would be a +ev play for him. guess what, we lose when KQ improves (at least almost always unless it's KJx)...so this is a bad thing for us. if we were to make it larger here pre, then if he was calling with KQo pre-flop it would be a big mistake for him, and we would then be making money when he puts chips in with KQo.



    i don't know what you mean by 'AK check back'...i think you mean AK raising vs KK and QQ raising?...um, i think most random villains raise sets or top 2 on this board just because ther'es a bunch of scare cards. if a diamond, J, or T peel he's gonna not feel comfortable with his hand anymore. so ya, in general i think people just don't slowplay hands on draw heavy boards.



    triple barreling here:
    um, with only 50bb to start the hand it's pretty awkward. we've already established that OP's turn sizing here is not optimal, and most likely a -ev bet. a river shove might make up for that though. it's tough to say, because i honestly don't know what people do with certain hands by this river (like you said, a lot of fish like to feel 'pot committed' and make really wide river calls), and when we don't have any info on teh villain we're going to have made a bunch of assumptions about what he does with certain hands, but let's give it a shot

    ok so we're on the turn, OP bets $16 into 56 and he gets called by the same range that calls the flop, except to make this not super skewed (because we don't know how every opponent is going to react to the turn bet, let's assume that 50% of the non top pair 1 pair hands folded on the turn. so that's KJ,KT,QJ...range looks like this: "AKo-AJo,KQo-KJo,AQs-ATs,KQs-KTs,QJs", with the 50% weight on thsoe hands

    now on river we're shoving $52 into $88, so he needs to fold 37% of hte time to show a profit here. if he calls with top pair or better, then he's calling 86% of the time, which is not going to be profitable. ok, so let's see how many Ax hands he nees to fold to make it profitable.

    if he folds his 3 combos of ATs then he folds 21% of the time...
    if he folds 3 combos of ATs plus 5 combos of AJo then he folds 34% of the time...okkkkk getting there..
    if he folds 3 combos of ATs plus 5 combos of AJo PLUS his 1 combo of AJcc, then he will be folding exactly 37% of the time for a break-even play.


    so, the way this hand was set up it looks like triple barreling is definitely not going to be +ev.

    there can be some (slight) argument made for maybe only bluffing certain cards, like a diamond, for example. but considering diamonds make up a fairly small portion of our range, and his range is so strong (in other words, people don't like folding 2 pair regardless of run-out, as we actually saw in the hand)...then i would still think i'ts a -ev play




    and finally...if i 3b to $20 pre...the pot sets up pretty nicely to bet $25 on the flop, then shove on the turn for $55 into $92. granted, with these stacks if i 3b to $20 pre i would just be c/f this board.
    Edited By: Gags30 Nov 15th, 2013 at 06:24 AM
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