Originally Posted by rock3656

i find it completely awesome that no one has even written down anything about passthesugha/moosedebator or how he plays. The whole deciding factor in how to play this hand optimally is based on passtheshugas base of thinking and play. How he reacts in 4 bet flops that are taken to flops, what his range might be and how he reacts with diff parts of that range is all something none of you monkeys have even mentioned. How can you become close to the optimal play without considering any of those factors? If he is a nasty mother fucker then you should probably bet the flop and never fold, in this situation the stacks and board texture are perfect to float the flop in position, and rep a KQ or KJ never folding or AA or QQ JJ jus being stubborn for villain. However if hes not as hood as were hoping for then why in the world would you ever bet/call or check/shove? You think that hes going to bet/call TT-QQ if u check, if your guys' history isnt hooded how would that ever happen.

Moorman your saying checking the flop is terrible, for you its fucking awful but with some dynamics it can 100% be the best play. Think about a hand that bets the flop in position in a 4 bet pot that we are ahead of once we check, and think about a hand that raises or floats the flop that we are ahead of and flats 4 bets pre. Vs the majority of players it would be zero, not everyone is a fkn ridici nutbag. From my experience with Moosedebator there would be very few hands in either section that could qualify, pretty much the only thing we can be getting owned by is some sick drawey type of hands 5xss 67ss 78ss Axss all of which have exceptional equity vs your hand. The rest of his range is for the most part going to play pretty stagnantly. This hand is just soo fkn ridiculous to post because it has so much to do with what is going on between you and shugah and your hand can either be like the fkn nuts or crushed if your continued against its very in between, and the strength of your hand has so much to do with how often moosedebator wants to tool out, since you seem to know nothing about his tendencies, i believe the most consistent way to gain value out of your hand would be to check flops, probably fold if he continues and gain value on future streets if it checks through. I jus doubt hes going o bluff you off your hand on the flop often at all, hes most likely going to percieve your check as strength and he probably isnt flatting TT-QQ to your 4 bet very often at all, even though he should. I know I can be contradicting myself when I say he views the flop check as strength but vs someone who isnt going to blow up to you very often at all in this spot with a worse hand, its not such a bad thing to define an inbetween hand as stronger then it actually is vs this type of opponent, makes the hand way easier to play out.

sorry we can't all play as optimally as you, rock

but don't forget that moorman doesn't need any 'dynamic' or 'history', cause everyone knows him and exept him to go crazy anyways. also if we ck/call we can no more represent air, wich we can do by just betting out small.

 

Originally Posted by iamthedeck ftw

exactly my thoughts... if he doesn't have AA he is lol bad but considering you posted you prob checked flop got checked behind by some sort of a draw that got there on the turn when you bet and he shoved so in the future bet ~3k and call all in knowing you have him crushed a lot

incorrect.

 

Originally Posted by marroca5

I think best line by far in flop is checking, basically for the reasons that rock stated......absolutely no clue how moorman can say that if you check flop you deserve to be shot, its quite the contrary without history. As spewy it may seem you should prolly check/call if he fires flop and check/fold turn, just cuz by check/calling flop your hand looks very very strong and he will almost never throw 2 barrels on a bluff or semibluff in that spot, but he could def be able to barrel the flop. If he checks you obv have to decide betting amounts you think he will pay off with worst hands in his range, or else checking might be good again on turn, but this also depends on what the turn is.....

so you dont think hes ever going to put you on jj and qq, and think you're going to just fold here? pretty sure if im villain and i fire the flop and get a flat, im firing the turn as well for this exact reason. unless he has kk he "should" be folding, which is why you prob shouldn't fold. hence, just small lead the flop and get it in vs a range you beat more often than not imo(dont see how the only thing he gets in with is aa)

 

Originally Posted by salesbeast

This and beacause his $5 mill badge says so.

yeah sick that they dont have a 6M badge yet... poor moorman

bet small, call shove. expect aa decent amt, but also stupid hands turned into bluffs... since u decided to 4 bet pre, and relatively ginned the flop you probably should go broke. idk player as well as others, but most solid/nit/tourney regs never really flat 4bets with these stack sizes, his range might be almost all AA/KK like pokerjamers suggested so then i could see a check fold

 

Originally Posted by SJUHawks18

Check/Fold .. or check and hope he checks AA behind and you bink a K or 10

yerp +1, he's either totally spazzing or has AA here, as narrow as that sounds I don't even think he'll flat KK here enough + he most likely doesn't have KK for obv reasons