Villian has been pretty tight/solid think somewhat of a regular... Hasnt really got out of line. On the river i have 25Kish... Tell me what you would do on river and why? Will post results later...

FullTiltPoker Game #13663369959: $1K Monday (98094957), Table 24 - 500/1,000 Ante 125 - No Limit Hold'em - 1:11:28 ET - 2009/07/28

Seat 2: Tmay420 (42,776)
Seat 3: knickadam55 (31,262)
Seat 4: BegsClutch (43,484)
Seat 5: NovaSky (52,333)
Seat 6: clotilda (51,742)
Seat 7: coinsaregold (35,751)
Seat 8: Villian (67,774)
Seat 9: officehound (59,464)
Tmay420 antes 125
knickadam55 antes 125
BegsClutch antes 125
NovaSky antes 125
clotilda antes 125
coinsaregold antes 125
Villian antes 125
officehound antes 125
coinsaregold posts the small blind of 500
cmdnst posts the big blind of 1,000
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to knickadam55 [6d Ad]
officehound folds
Tmay420 folds
knickadam55 raises to 2,875
BegsClutch folds
NovaSky folds
clotilda folds
coinsaregold folds
Villian calls 1,875
*** FLOP *** [Kd Jh Jc]
Villian checks
knickadam55 has 15 seconds left to act
knickadam55 has requested TIME
knickadam55 checks
*** TURN *** [Kd Jh Jc] [3d]
Villian bets 4,000
knickadam55 calls 4,000
*** RIVER *** [Kd Jh Jc 3d] [Qd]
Villian has 15 seconds left to act
Villian bets 7,000
knickadam55 has 15 seconds left to act
knickadam55 .........?

If ur calling turn, wouldn't u have to call that river? I mean why would u call turn if u get the card u were looking for on river and fold. Unless ur asking if you should shove, which obv you shouldn't. Also not to beat a dead horse, but I'd fold pre.

 

Originally Posted by MikeCaroJr

If ur calling turn, wouldn't u have to call that river? I mean why would u call turn if u get the card u were looking for on river and fold. Unless ur asking if you should shove, which obv you shouldn't. Also not to beat a dead horse, but I'd fold pre.

lol at fold pre posts

 

Originally Posted by darrenelias

im flatting this river but dont rly like your line up till then. why are we checking back this flop? if villian is snug you have relatively no showdown value on that flop and at least by betting you can fold out parts of his range like 66-99 and Axs. it's not like you flopped a flush draw. im assuming you're torn between calling and raising this river, but i see little value in raising. if you raise, a shove is the play, and a competent villian is folding almost anything but a boat to the river shove. i dont think he shows up with AT here very often. mayyybe he's calling with AJ but your line looks pretty strong if you shove this river.
d

Agreed check flop isnt necessarily best play... But yes im curious as to whether people think there is value to raise by end... Good points...

 

Originally Posted by darrenelias

im flatting this river but dont rly like your line up till then. why are we checking back this flop? if villian is snug you have relatively no showdown value on that flop and at least by betting you can fold out parts of his range like 66-99 and Axs. it's not like you flopped a flush draw. im assuming you're torn between calling and raising this river, but i see little value in raising. if you raise, a shove is the play, and a competent villian is folding almost anything but a boat to the river shove. i dont think he shows up with AT here very often. mayyybe he's calling with AJ but your line looks pretty strong if you shove this river.
d

Agree with most of what you said, except for the part in bold. If you bet turn/bet river he will still be folding those hands if he is as snug as you think he is. Kx checks behind that flop a lot and if you bet turn and then bet river it will still look pretty damn strong imo, plus it gives you some free cards at times. Betting flop or checking behind and betting turn + river are too read dependent in these situations.

 

Originally Posted by Hitman

Shoving the river would be pretty bad. There are 2 reasons to shove the river... for value, or as a bluff.

As a bluff: Will better hands fold? No, I can't see that. Even with a small boat, maybe he'll be sick to his stomach thinking you flopped K's full and slow played, but his money is going in.

For value: Will worse hands call? This line would look so strong, you've essentially turned all of his worse hands into bluff catchers. Maybe he gets stubborn with AJ or AT if he shows up with that, but that's probably about it. But given your line with a river shove they're essentially the same hand strength as AK on this board (bluff catchers), and a solid reg should be smart enough to know this, so it's really hard to see him calling with worse here.

I agree, shoving the river is bad, your only going to get called by a better hand. Just flat here is good imo.

really???? If you're not raising river here why would u ever call the turn bet???

just for the record since everyone is saying flat... that is bad and makes this whole hand really bad... and yes i raise river AS PLAYED

Both folding and opening pre are acceptable, depending on image. I'd usually fold cuz my image sux and the guys behind u aren't exactly passive paulies. As far as postflop, I don't find this hand very interesting. I agree with Frank about checking the flop, and from there this is a trivial call, call hand.

 

Originally Posted by DFish

 

Originally Posted by PiKappRaider

really???? If you're not raising river here why would u ever call the turn bet???

just for the record since everyone is saying flat... that is bad and makes this whole hand really bad... and yes i raise river AS PLAYED

The turn is debatable and folding certainly isn't out of the question. This river is the worst card to shove for a few reasons, and I would definitely shove a low diamond. The Q not only fills 2 possible hands, although really only 1, but the greater issue is that it eliminates the possibility of him having a reasonable flush and makes it nearly impossible for him to call a shove with worse, because unless he called from bb with a small suited connector, or feels extremely heroic with AJ/AT(even tho these and a small flush are all the same hand) he's folding all worse hands.

Yes pikapp, please explain. I assume you agree he's not folding any better hands to a shove. So what do you think you're getting value from shoving, and is that value enough to compensate for the times you're stacking off to a better hand?

 

Originally Posted by jpapola

im shoving

 

Originally Posted by pokerjamers

 

Originally Posted by jpapola

im shoving

im just wondering who the f is calling with aj in this spot... i want to know what hands we get value from here... jw, cuz i cant think of one...

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I don't really like calling with a hand that if you make you can't raise either.

What about making it 14k wouldn't that keep in smaller flushes and bare trips and obv call if he ships, but at least it gives a shot at getting value from the hands that can call another 7k.

 

Originally Posted by DFish

 

Originally Posted by PiKappRaider

really???? If you're not raising river here why would u ever call the turn bet???

just for the record since everyone is saying flat... that is bad and makes this whole hand really bad... and yes i raise river AS PLAYED

The turn is debatable and folding certainly isn't out of the question. This river is the worst card to shove for a few reasons, and I would definitely shove a low diamond. The Q not only fills 2 possible hands, although really only 1, but the greater issue is that it eliminates the possibility of him having a reasonable flush and makes it nearly impossible for him to call a shove with worse, because unless he called from bb with a small suited connector, or feels extremely heroic with AJ/AT(even tho these and a small flush are all the same hand) he's folding all worse hands.

Ok I guess it is a shitty card to be shoving, but even though it is I still think you get paid off by a lot weaker hands then boats... some people are pretty awful but I'd go as far as to say I doubt any flushes or straights are folding, many times a strong J.

The point I wanted to make was how bad it is to call on the turn with a flush draw and not get value on it on river... so as played once I hit I'm going with it... even though I don't play it like this

 

Originally Posted by PiKappRaider

 

Originally Posted by DFish

 

Originally Posted by PiKappRaider

really???? If you're not raising river here why would u ever call the turn bet???

just for the record since everyone is saying flat... that is bad and makes this whole hand really bad... and yes i raise river AS PLAYED

The turn is debatable and folding certainly isn't out of the question. This river is the worst card to shove for a few reasons, and I would definitely shove a low diamond. The Q not only fills 2 possible hands, although really only 1, but the greater issue is that it eliminates the possibility of him having a reasonable flush and makes it nearly impossible for him to call a shove with worse, because unless he called from bb with a small suited connector, or feels extremely heroic with AJ/AT(even tho these and a small flush are all the same hand) he's folding all worse hands.

Ok I guess it is a shitty card to be shoving, but even though it is I still think you get paid off by a lot weaker hands then boats... some people are pretty awful but I'd go as far as to say I doubt any flushes or straights are folding, many times a strong J.

The point I wanted to make was how bad it is to call on the turn with a flush draw and not get value on it on river... so as played once I hit I'm going with it... even though I don't play it like this

Interesting points by everyone. A little surprising as i leaned towards not really getting any value shoving and the times i stack off outweighs those thin value spots. I see what you're talking about no point in calling if you can't get value on river but i think thats not true as stated earlier the Q diamonds was the worst possible diamond and if it came 5 diamonds i think its an easy raise and i do get value. Not to mention im not calling against AJ knowing i need a diamond im calling with the draw and many times i have best hand right there but think a raise is just bad. I see why checking a flop may be 'wrong' to many of you but i think there is actually value in my hand and that flop hits so many K's and draws that could blow me off the hand so i really dont mind a check but anyways. I will now show you the results, obviously these specific results arent enough to say one thing is right or wrong but its what made me ponder this situation.

*** TURN *** [Kd Jh Jc] [3d]
Villian bets 4,000
knickadam55 calls 4,000
*** RIVER *** [Kd Jh Jc 3d] [Qd]
Villian has 15 seconds left to act
Villian bets 7,000
knickadam55 has 15 seconds left to act
knickadam55 calls 7,000
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Villian shows [8d Td] a flush, King high
knickadam55 shows [6d Ad] a flush, Ace high
knickadam55 wins the pot (29,250) with a flush, Ace high
*** SUMMARY ***
Duration 75s
Total pot 29,250 | Rake 0
Board: [Kd Jh Jc 3d Qd]
Seat 2: Tmay420 folded before the Flop
Seat 3: knickadam55 showed [6d Ad] and won (29,250) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 4: BegsClutch folded before the Flop
Seat 5: NovaSky folded before the Flop
Seat 6: clotilda (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: coinsaregold (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: Villian (big blind) showed [8d Td] and lost with a flush, King high
Seat 9: officehound folded before the Flop

So obviously he had one of the few hands where i may have missed value and he might of called. But Tbh, my read on the player wasnt good enough to know whether I think he could/would call there with that type of hand as i think most solid players fold to that river raise as only hand hes beating is A10off!? My line looks like a monster (KK) and i think it is sucha rare bluff line that this is one of the very few situations where i might squeek value and im not sure if i even do. I was a little annoyed seeing his hand but i think i save my life a lot more than i get more value with a river call. J10 diamonds or the hand he had are the only possible thoughts IMO unless i have better knowledge of villian.....

 

Originally Posted by bluffslv

gross spot as AJ,JK,QJ,J10 make up a pretty big part of his bb defend range. You're hand is pretty under-repped with the back door flushin coming. Just the way the hand played out I think shoving for value here might be the best play. He could be value betting worse AJ J10 and worse flushes like J10dd, 910dd. Meh now I kind of want to just call idk.

I don't play online 1ks so take my advice with a grain of salt.

He may value bet those hands, but is there any chance that hes going to call a raise? Probably not, in that case I think your best calling. I really think your ahead, but I doubt you'll get action from many hands that you have crushed. He could have a straight, he could have a smaller flush but I'm not sure if its worth the risk to find out.