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$2-5 Cash Live OOP with AA very deep

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  1. pferdferd pferdferd is offline

    New York City, NY
    United States

    Posts: 9
    Joined: Jun 09

    Jun 22nd, 2009 (6/22/2009 4:39pm)

    I've been playing in a pretty good (read 4-5 fishes) live game at the Borgata when this hand comes up against the one player I most respect at the table. He has raised maybe 15 pots in the last 5 hours and won 80% of them, most without showdown and when he has shown down it's with huge hands. He's pure TAG, I haven't played with him before, but I've seen him at the Borgata all the time and know he's one of the guys who just sits here and destroys the game week after week.

    That being said, I'm in the SB with $1800 when this hand comes up. The table folds to the Villian who raises in the CO to $35 and is sitting on about $1300, button folds and I look down at AcAs. I've been playing what looks to be uber loose preflop and have the image of "lucky idiot" to some, but probably "dangerous loose-pre flop TAG post-flop" in this player's mind. I've shown down 42s twice in raised pots for winners as well as a few other suspect hands.

    I'm pretty positive in my head that he's got a strong hand, because of the 3 players left one is nitty, one is straightforward and one is "dangerous" (me). A raise here, i felt would really define my hand, and likely lose him unless he had a monster, where as a flat would give me a chance to check call him into oblivion. I realize that this is a dangerous play as I don't pick up much info preflop as to the true strength of his hand, but I thought this is my best chance to get chips from this guy outside of running a huge bluff or a set up hand against him.

    Now for the hand:

    Villain raises to $35, I flat in the SB, BB folds, we are HU.

    Flop 974 two hearts, i check and he c-bets $75.

    I call fairly quicky (perhaps representing Flush or straight draw, the type of hand I've been winning with)

    Pot $225

    Turn is a Black J

    I check again and he bets $175, I call after a little hesitation.

    Pot is $575

    River Black K

    I check, he bets $300 I call he shows down KK.

    Obviously hindsight is 20-20, and but a check raise at any point in this hand and I'm pretty sure he goes away unless i'm crushed, so I think I like the way i played it, just not too happy with the results. When he bet's on the turn, i know he's serious about the hand. I can narrow his range to an overpair, set or perhaps the nut flush draw/AJ.

    any thoughts on my set up/execution?
  2. elusively elusively is offline

    MD
    United States

    Posts: 5,260
    Joined: Feb 07

    Jun 22nd, 2009 (6/22/2009 5:10pm) in reply to pferdferd

    I understand the thought process behind calling preflop, but if you have a loose preflop image like you said, I think you're losing value by flatting. This is especially true considering your description of the villian. If he's only raised 15 hands in five hours, he's obv in there with premiums only and will absolutely at least call a 3-bet from you preflop. IDK, it seems like you had the right idea the entire hand and just got unlucky, but I think there are more optimal lines.

    I love the check call on that flop, but I'm leading the turn for sure. Given his image, you're only beating QQ on the river, but you still have to call because you've played your hand so passively.

    All in all, I'm reraising preflop, which changes the dynamics of the hand dramatically. If I reraise preflop, I'm leading the flop.

    I usually have an image much like the one you described, "dangerous loose-pre flop TAG post-flop" to the players who know what's going on. That said, I like to take advantage of this by playing my big hands fast.
  3. pferdferd pferdferd is offline

    New York City, NY
    United States

    Posts: 9
    Joined: Jun 09

    Jun 22nd, 2009 (6/22/2009 5:17pm) in reply to elusively

    I should add that in I've only 3 bet preflop a few hands in the entire 5 hours. I'm aware i'd probably get action preflop, but 75% of the time i'm bettin 2/3 rds pot on flop and taking it down...IDK, maybe this is not a player i want to be playing a big pot with anyway? and i'm happy reraising, c-betting and winnnig the small one?
    Thread Starter
  4. SJU Baseball SJU Baseball is offline

    Hatboro, PA
    United States

    Posts: 268
    Joined: Jan 07

    Jun 24th, 2009 (6/24/2009 11:51pm) in reply to pferdferd

    hi i havent posted ever in hand advice so here goes...

    since youre deep 3b here at all times... hes going to call you light some of the time

    as played... c/r flop (250ish) for value and to merge your range in c/r flops like this. if you happen to get to showdown and flip over aces afer c/ring this flop you can later get aaway with c/r air on this flop after a cbet. flop is draw heavy for your calling range if youve shown down 24s proir so you c/r could look drawy and he might spaz if hes thinking. results oriented hed prob like snap blast in the 260bb stack after c/r. he might flat with his over pairs and draws and top pair... but T8hh is out cause hed go nuts. the other T8s are still in his range as well as any other rando fd.

    as played... turn im check calling

    if c/r flop and flat... leading out for like 425 into 575. for him hed prob just flat with the KK. if he turned the nuts hed prob just flat as well or maybe shove if his nitty and is scared to see another card. prob folds out most fd unless he had a J with it but wouldnt shove cause of how strong you look and if checks on a river blank prob just wants to get to showdown. J9 turning two pair prob just jams which i guess in most cases a turn jam prob a fold with AA.

    as played... river im check calling and bitching obv

    turn flat... i dont think a river shove is getting called by anything less then a pair so im checking to get to show down. if you check and he shoves, again im folding cause he should never be bluffing here ever... any two pair sees 2 straights now on board and just wants to showdown. all straights shove... and most likely the KK cause you show up with a set here if you check call shove almost all the time. the worst he would shove with would prob be a Kxhh but even still prob just wants to get to showdown.

    cliff notes... 3b pre fish
     
  5. uhwhatsthatdeal uhwhatsthatdeal is offline

    Fairfax, VA
    United States

    Posts: 12
    Joined: Aug 07

    Jun 25th, 2009 (6/25/2009 10:42am) in reply to SJU Baseball

    Re-raise pre. Since you did not...I would C/R flop everytime, I agree with SJU, if it goes to showdown you can possibly get away with c/r with air later. Highly unlikely he hit his set, so get your money in good when you can. If he shoves, his QQ or KK must be good to him as you have a draw or TT/JJ/top top. Playing it small here may have worked in your favor in this case, since K was coming no matter what!
  6. saukendar saukendar is offline

    United States

    Posts: 1,235
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    Jun 25th, 2009 (6/25/2009 11:10am) in reply to pferdferd

    Flatting AA is required sontimes to mix up your game but NEVER do it OOP.

    Pre-flop reraise him solid, if he 4-bets you move in on him - yea you go broke here but AA vs. KK in deep cash is as good as it gets. In the long run your giving up WAY to much value by not getting your chips in here, he'll only bust you 1 time in 5 the rest you bust him. If your TAG read is solid you have a real chance to get it all in pre with AA vs. an under PR :)

    As played on the flop you are OOP with AA and have LP raiser and a nasty draw heavy board so a check/call is out of the question! So he's TAG and only plays 1 hand an orbit - he can still be on 56, T8 or AhKh - no way you want to continue on this board! Check/raise maybe sometimes, if your read has him betting draws in position close to 100% of the time. If you think there is a good chance he takes a free one off on a strong draw you have to open in the 3/4 to full pot range. With this board there are just way to many ways he could be looking at 12 to 15 outs. With your flat pre you really don't have any idea what he has here.

    On the turn & river - well the str8 got there both rounds and you played it so weak you are now pretty much stuck with check/call or check/fold - by the river you still don't have any clear info about his hand. To go for value here he has have you on a missed flush draw, maybe a PR and a missed draw. With this board I doubt he goes for value with less than 2 PR. Basicly you can only beat a bluff on the river.
    my 2 cents
  7. mattk1981 mattk1981 is offline

    Marlborough, MA
    United States

    Posts: 86
    Joined: Jul 07

    Jun 28th, 2009 (6/28/2009 11:47pm) in reply to pferdferd

    i dont think its so much about the hand, but it seems like you were afraid to lose a lot of money here. the whole time im guessing you were managing pot size versus trying to make an optimal play. the check/call only way to get paid off arguement is not holding water to me.

    i think if u win some buyins and get uncomfortable like that just leave and come back shorter in a bit.
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