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30,000 Hands - getting killed 6 handed only - please suggest places to look for leaks???

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  1. NGLoots NGLoots is offline

    United States

    Posts: 185
    Joined: May 05

    Jul 1st, 2008 (7/1/2008 11:22am)

    Hey guys,

    Playing a lot of poker again over the last 4 months after taking 6 months off.

    Fully into my stats now for 30,000 hands, and I notice I'm a winning player at 9 or 10 seat tables $1 NL.

    VPIP is always around 25 for both 9 seat and 6 seat, aggression is pretty standard, stealing, defending blinds, etc - all pretty standard.

    But at 6 seat tables - I'm either losing or barely breaking even - especially on stars.

    Please suggest any spots to look for leaks in my game that could cause this.

    Some other info:

    1. I've found over time that if I buy in for half-stack, I tend to win more - so I always do. But when I run that up to a full buy-in, I keep playing.

    2. Until they show me otherwise, I tend to think on every hand i'm involved in: "how would I bet if I flopped a monster" (and yes, that's what she said...)

    3. I tend to get a little "trappy", and feel like I don't value-bet well.

    ANY HELP WOULD BE APPRECIATED - THANKS TO THE FORUM!!!

    -N
  2. gguk2008 gguk2008 is offline

    United Kingdom

    Posts: 1,021
    Joined: May 08

    Jul 1st, 2008 (7/1/2008 11:41am) in reply to NGLoots

    Any attempts to bluff the unbluffable?

    C-betting too much?
  3. TheConArtist TheConArtist is offline

    Ireland

    Posts: 3,196
    Joined: Sep 06

    Jul 1st, 2008 (7/1/2008 12:07pm) in reply to NGLoots

    30 000 hands is a small sample size, very small.

    Buying in for half a stack is extremely stupid.

    VPIP of 25 at a full ring table is very spewy imo. Prolly fine at 6 max if you are very good post flop which I doubt you are given your post.

    Value bet more.

    Your thought process if it really is 'how would i bet if I flopped a monster' is like the biggest leak I have ever heard of. Learn how to think about poker.
  4. AfricanRiverGod AfricanRiverGod is offline

    Nairobi
    Kenya

    Posts: 127
    Joined: Dec 07

    Jul 1st, 2008 (7/1/2008 12:53pm) in reply to TheConArtist

    you need to:

    -stop playing 1nl

    -stop trying to think advanced at 1nl

    -don't be so "trappy"

    -always buy-in for full

    -change your thought process

    -spew less

    -gain confidence
  5. NGLoots NGLoots is offline

    United States

    Posts: 185
    Joined: May 05

    Jul 2nd, 2008 (7/2/2008 8:03am) in reply to AfricanRiverGod

    Thanks to all for the advice - I'll give it a try and see how it goes.

    Thread Starter
  6. NGLoots NGLoots is offline

    United States

    Posts: 185
    Joined: May 05

    Jul 2nd, 2008 (7/2/2008 8:10am) in reply to TheConArtist

    Con Artisit - you post sounds a little arrogant, so I'm not sure if your a logical cat or not - but either way, since you did say some good stuff - I want to reopen the discussion of why you think its bad to bet, raise, checkraise, etc like you have a monster until your opponent(s) put to a decision. I've always heard the common belief that your always want your opponents to fear that you have the nuts.

    Now don't take this too far obviously - you don't do it in big multiway pots with no hand, when others are already betting and raising - but against checks, c-bets, weak leads, min raises, or even a paired board on the river - why wouldn't you always attack your opponent with what appears to be true strength until you figure out that he/she is either a calling station, or that its them who actually has a monster.

    What say you?

    Thanks again for your post.
    Thread Starter
  7. gguk2008 gguk2008 is offline

    United Kingdom

    Posts: 1,021
    Joined: May 08

    Jul 2nd, 2008 (7/2/2008 8:49am) in reply to NGLoots

    NGLoots - You didn't direct your questions at me but I think I can answer them, mainly for the selfish reason of seeing if I'm right and getting my skewed opinions put right if I am wrong.

    $1 NL - do you mean you're playing 0.50/1, or do you mean $10NL and have made a typo?

    Either way, I think you're giving everybody on your table too much credit. I would start off by presuming that everybody on the table is a complete and utter donkey and will call me down with middle pair. Then after you've had a few hands on the table (datamine too, you need to datamine), then you can change your opinions, identify the weak-tight players, identify the passive players and tag them as such in your notes. But still, firing 2-3 barrels on a bluff or semi-bluff is a losing proposition. These low-limit players (I should know, I'm one of them) will not let go of a hand or a draw, and they only need to spike something on the river for you to lose everything. They're not worried about being put underpressure or losing their buy-in - the money doesn't mean that much to them.

    Try watching Dabeaar's videos on Pokertube.com. He plays $1-2 and I think $.50-1 in some of his videos, and he shows you the pitfalls of playing low limits.

    The fact of the matter is, you may be showing 'true strength' characteristics, but if you were the PF raiser, they must've called you with something. If the board misses you completely and you C-bet and you get called again, the alarm bells need to start ringing. If you're in late position after PF raising and get bet into on the flop, probably a raise won't get them away either: they'll have hit something and if you've hit nothing you need to get out without a significant number of outs.

    Take Mike Caro's advice: avoid fancy play syndrome and play ABC poker until you have solid reads, and then test the water. Don't do it too often, but pick your spots. Money saved can be spent just the same as money won, so don't spew off your winnings by 3-bullet bluffing and being called down by middle pair.

    Good luck!
  8. NGLoots NGLoots is offline

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    Jul 2nd, 2008 (7/2/2008 10:53am) in reply to gguk2008

    Thanks for the follow up - and yes I'm playing .5/1 NL

    I just ran a lot of reports, and interestingly enough, the overall advice was right on:

    1. I lose the most when my Total Agression Factor gets above 3
    2. I also lose the most when my stack is under 40 BB

    Thanks again for posting guys - back to the drawing board...
    Thread Starter
  9. drewmas7 drewmas7 is offline

    Louisville, KY
    United States

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    Jul 2nd, 2008 (7/2/2008 11:41am) in reply to NGLoots

    Read these 3 posts, especially focus on how important it is to identify, isolate and abuse the fish. That is where you make your money.

    http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...Number=3661078
    http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...Number=3740388
    http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...Number=3964627
  10. TheConArtist TheConArtist is offline

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    Jul 3rd, 2008 (7/3/2008 1:13am) in reply to gguk2008

     
    Originally Posted by gguk2008 View Post


    Try watching Dabeaar's videos on Pokertube.com. He plays $1-2 and I think $.50-1 in some of his videos, and he shows you the pitfalls of playing low limits.

    Can I just quote this and bump? Because I have watched some of Dabear's videos and they are hilarious. He is like the worst player I have ever seen and doesn't have the faintest notion how to play or think about poker.
  11. gguk2008 gguk2008 is offline

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    Jul 3rd, 2008 (7/3/2008 3:45am) in reply to TheConArtist

    I think you're exagerrating a bit - the worst player you've ever seen?

    Besides, I never said that the OP should use it as his blueprint for poker domination, I said that he should watch it and see the pitfalls.
  12. TheConArtist TheConArtist is offline

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    Jul 4th, 2008 (7/4/2008 1:04am) in reply to gguk2008

    Well I have certainly never seen a worse player make a video and commentate with his thought process. I have seen worse players at the table obviously but I imagine they don't have a thought process.
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