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3handed in the 320$... about to talk chop

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  1. davrow davrow is offline

    United Kingdom

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    Dec 9th, 2011 (12/9/2011 2:03pm) in reply to RedIceRap

    wow Darkhawk, one of the biggest strategy posts I've ever seen how long did it take you to write that?
     
  2. flashdisastr flashdisastr is offline

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    Dec 9th, 2011 (12/9/2011 2:07pm) in reply to davrow

    great post darkhawk! very nice put
    btw I misread the board in my first analyse, I thought he would have Nut FD with the K of spade which isnt the case, I thought the ace was a spade. So this makes his play even more plorized since like darkhawk said he would just call (or bet) the turn with the ace of spade.
    And no I disagree with redicrap, why would you turn an allready strong ahnd like ax of spade in to a bluff! Foutight wont fold a set ot two pair anyway, makes 0 sens.
    Anyway the ace of hearts (non-spade) eliminates some semi draws he is pushing with.

    For the poeple who say check/back: Would you check back aj as well?
    Edited By: flashdisastr Dec 9th, 2011 at 02:29 PM
    38 
  3. RedIceRap RedIceRap is offline Moderator

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    Dec 9th, 2011 (12/9/2011 4:01pm) in reply to flashdisastr

    Well, first of all, imo it doesnt really matter if we have A9, AJ or AK here. I check back with all of them, and my main reason for this is actually not the fear of being check raised, the main reason is to get value from worse on the river. Calling flop and checking back looks like hero has some sort of showdownvalue or even 9T. So my guess is villain will either valuebet a worse hand on the river, bluff sometimes, or check snapcall with something like KK or worse. And yeah don't know why someone would check raise an As on the turn, I at least would just bet the turn. But if he has a hand that he can't call a shove with that would make sense imo. If he bets the turn and get shoved on he maybe has to fold some hands. That way he 1. looks very strong 2. Picks up the chips most of the time if hero bets and folds (esp if hero is capable of floating/bluffing) and 3.puts in the last bet, which is a really good spot one hand away from a deal. And if villain expects Hero to fold anything that's not 2pair or a set he def could do it with A2-A6 with the A of spades. I dont know if i would call with a set or two pair here since when i bet the turn as hero my range is polarized. Think i def could find a fold with 78, since it doesnt do well vs AX with the A of spades or something like KKsx which decided to take this line. Feel like theres a mistake in my explanation somewhere, always have problems analyzing a hand without being involved in it. So you saying betting the turn is a good play here flash? Can you write some ranges? What's gonna fold? What's gonna call? What's gonna shove? And if u do it, dont forget the circumstances! Last hand before deal. If Fou's calling range is 2pair+, this is a strong play from villain with a combo draw imo. But could be everything here, even a lower made flush. I rly bet there only with a hand I gonna call a shove with or a hand that has like zero chance to win the pot at SD. Rly dont get why betting is good there and what u are trying to accomplish. Think it's more likely he woulda bet the turn after picking up a draw (kinda more likely than what i said before, that villain just wants to put in the last bet, feel like not many villains will care about this while in the hand). So when he shoves i think he has a strong made hand like 2pair with FD at least. The rest he's just gonna fold imo. What does he flat the turn with? A2-A6 without a spade? KK without a spade? Rly doubt there are any hands that will flat turn, except hands without a spade that have ours beat.
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  4. flashdisastr flashdisastr is offline

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    Dec 9th, 2011 (12/9/2011 5:37pm) in reply to RedIceRap

    hmm ok, well I think the most important is mroe what villain is gonna check/raise with more than what he is gonna call with.
    Like you said a check/raise here is super polorized and very risky for him since hero could def have a flush.
    Like darkhawl explained it is tough for him to check raise here a solid draw since he would prob just call with the nut flush ace.
    I also would expect him to keep barreling with all his strong holdings (two pairs, sets, big draws, tptk) since he doesnt want hero to potcontrol on turn and also to get value or protect from any spade.
    I think this is also dynamic and player depending. If hero s the kind of player who never floats or is flatting a lot I think indeed it might be ok to check back. If hero does float a lot and/or flats a lot in position hero can get 3 streets (!) value with this hand from any pair between ace and 8 and any Ax (under 7) or even just middle pair with or without spade, since tehre are a lot of draws possible. But idk it might also be a good spot for villain to put the pressure back since he knows you floating a lot but it seams just pretty sick on that board;/. So if river bricks tou can get hero calls alot.
    Alos its a thing of balancing since you gonna bet your floats (like gutters or openended or even total air floats(??) ) so you gotta bet alos your top pair. On this kinda of board I feel like its tough to check raise bluff for all your chips since the turn did improve the callers range (flush).
    Another problem with checking back is that you kinda show your hand face up. Cause whats heros range? Suited boradways and ace 9 + I would guess, maybe also small pairs (including 88 and 99 btw). Not many pairs between 8 and ace since hero would be 3 betting these. So if you check back the turn what is left? Pretty much exactly Ax. I jus think he is more likely to call on turn cause it looks bluffier than river.
    But again since its the last ahndbefore deal making I think checking back might be very good.
    not sure if i didnt miss something.. gtg
    38 
  5. FouTight FouTight is offline international super spy

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    Dec 9th, 2011 (12/9/2011 7:31pm) in reply to flashdisastr

     
    Originally Posted by flashdisastr View Post

    But again since its the last ahndbefore deal making I think checking back might be very good.
    not sure if i didnt miss something.. gtg

    This wasnt known at the time of his check-raise . They had never agreed to talk numbers, I just went ahead and emailed stars on my own.

    The admin came in a announced he was pausing the tourney to talk numbers AFTER he shoved adn BEFORE I folded. I wasnt guaranteed a 3way chop if i folded but i thought the chances of getting it were pretty high since the stacks would all be very even.


    ALso, thanks a lot to everyone who posted in here!!! Much <3

    Guess there are still lots of great poker players on P5 willing to post some solid strategy advice. w0rd. F the haters.
    Edited By: FouTight Dec 9th, 2011 at 07:35 PM
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    Thread Starter
  6. darkhawk-200 darkhawk-200 is offline

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    Dec 9th, 2011 (12/9/2011 7:57pm) in reply to FouTight

    redicecap,

    sure you can check back the turn, like i said any hand you are getting value from on the river you can probably get value from on the turn, unless he improves then you just lose the pot. Also betting the turn let's you check the river. And you can even blast the river for value if everything bricks. (this is positional advantage)

    Also you have to check back the turn with straight draw as well to bluff the river, if you don't play like that, then your river bet is always for value, and the villian can just play optimally against that range.

    I think Bet/folding is just the standard line to take. Bet/calling if you have specific reasons to think he has a ton of semi bluffs here compared to value hands.

    You guys are basically too nitty post flop if you think you can't get 2 streets of value with a9 against a lot of his hands on the turn and river if hero has any floating tendencies at all.

    Other lines to consider is, betting smaller on the turn with intentions to call c/r and call blank river, or raising the flop for value and betting the turn when the flush hits and checking when it doesn't to bet a missed river to rep a missed flush draw.
    Edited By: darkhawk-200 Dec 9th, 2011 at 07:59 PM
     1
  7. RedIceRap RedIceRap is offline Moderator

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    Dec 9th, 2011 (12/9/2011 8:30pm) in reply to darkhawk-200

    Yeah im simply a huge fan of being underrepped and feel like im getting a ton of value with my lines in these agressive times. Even if he prolly has us crushed on the turn i feel like he will just fold everything else. Sure you can get value with TP on two streets, but I think you get much more value by checking back, since if he bets and has you beat you get to showdown and it will prolly cost you the same amount, with the advantages of ending the hand by clicking as last and with a good chance that you have the best hand (maybe repeating myself, sry for that). Plus you show weakness by checking back and induce a lot. Betting turn is the standard play in this spot? I'm actually kinda shocked that it's even an option there for some players. Well, not shocked but rly nice to see that different players have different styles and different understanding of the game. Im a huge floater/slow player etc. I take passive lines and feel like Im doing pretty well and getting the most value out of my opponent. Many players just keep barreling. And I do check behind the turn with a flush there sometimes for deception. If he has two pair or a set he will like snap call a river reshove after betting for value, since not that many players check behind the turn with a flush. Rly like to know what villain has here. There's is like no hand i would play like this.

    Think I had a similar river spot. Im not a nit but tbh, i dont regret my fold at all. It was one of these spots where my hand is just too strong to check back the river but felt like i beat nothing after villain shoved. Would be cool if some players share their opinion on this hand (http://www.pocketfives.com/f7/tough-...ourney-652914/), and of course hopefully somd more players come into this thread, since it's getting interesting now.
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  8. rowie343 rowie343 is offline

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    Dec 12th, 2011 (12/12/2011 1:15am) in reply to RedIceRap

    [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]My amateur point of view 2 cents worth-
    Hands that villain will call on turn that u get value for by turn betting is: A-7 and lower / 99-KK / 9-10 / 1 card spade flush draws. If river misses flush range, then u win extra bet from turn bet as he folds the river miss (which he wouldve folded anyway to any value river bet hero makes). Checking turn, then betting river- u probably wont get a call if he missed his draw (hence no value at all). Betting turn then betting/checking river u get more value from your turn bet. Betting turn then betting river u may get called on both streets by A7 lower, 99-KK etc = more value than only river bet. Hence there is merit in turn bet for sure.
    Under circumstances I fold to his shove here. Nice thread to all who have contributed.
    [/SIZE][/FONT]
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