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4bet or fold 109r against matt suspect

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  1. Kochan Kochan is offline

    Sydney
    Australia

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    Joined: Dec 06

    Feb 24th, 2008 (2/24/2008 11:17pm)

    13 left

    Seat 2: schmeek (348676 in chips)
    Seat 3: PAW717 (177992 in chips)
    Seat 4: JOEYTHEB (124574 in chips)
    Seat 5: Aryamehr (380473 in chips)
    Seat 6: Greenstone25 (223660 in chips)
    Seat 7: puntnko (206342 in chips)
    Seat 9: MattSuspect (420423 in chips)
    schmeek: posts the ante 1000
    PAW717: posts the ante 1000
    JOEYTHEB: posts the ante 1000
    Aryamehr: posts the ante 1000
    Greenstone25: posts the ante 1000
    puntnko: posts the ante 1000
    MattSuspect: posts the ante 1000
    MattSuspect: posts small blind 5000
    schmeek: posts big blind 10000
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to puntnko [Jh Ah]
    PAW717: folds
    JOEYTHEB: folds
    Aryamehr: folds
    Greenstone25: folds
    puntnko: raises 16000 to 26000
    MattSuspect: raises 74000 to 100000
    schmeek: folds
    puntnko:?????

    what is his range here??
     
  2. thefuture021 thefuture021 is offline

    Dallas, TX
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    Feb 24th, 2008 (2/24/2008 11:22pm) in reply to Kochan

    Very tough spot and read dependant. Was he trying to run over the table? Was he active OOP? AJs is strong relatively shorthanded, I'd probably err on the side of jamming it here, just because his range is the widest sans reads considering you're making a button raise and he's the chip leader, but folding is definitely not bad considering you're less than 20% in.
  3. garage13 garage13 is offline

    Melbourne
    Australia

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    Feb 24th, 2008 (2/24/2008 11:23pm) in reply to Kochan

    i call if im kochan, RUN GOOT
     1
  4. teek_00 teek_00 is offline

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    Feb 24th, 2008 (2/24/2008 11:40pm) in reply to Kochan

    I'd imagine his range is at very tightest 44+, ATo+, KQo+ which puts you in pretty decent shape.

    So its reasonably close...but a spot I'd ship in.
  5. mman_status mman_status is offline

    Tajikistan

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    Feb 24th, 2008 (2/24/2008 11:52pm) in reply to teek_00

    easiest fold ever
  6. Micdiddy Micdiddy is offline

    Santa Barbara, CA
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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 12:07am) in reply to Kochan

    I'd prob ship it in.
  7. Jovial Gent Jovial Gent is offline

    Seattle, WA
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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 12:09am) in reply to mman_status

    are you joking mman? I can't tell.
     11
  8. mman_status mman_status is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 12:11am) in reply to Jovial Gent

    maybe not easiest fold ever but im not joking about that being a fairly standard fold. you have 0 fold equity, and if hes not doing that with Ax's lower then ur AJ u are behind his range. him 4xing ur opening raise basically announces that hes not folding if you 4-bet. I don't think he'd risk half of his 40bb stack at that stage committing to a resteal very light here.
  9. Genetikfreak Genetikfreak is offline

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    Canada

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 12:31am) in reply to Micdiddy

    13 left he may 3 betting 'light' and playing chicken, obv no fold equity but maybe u wanna take a stand ... at least reshiping it give u a shot at getting lucky even if u r behind + ur suited
  10. mattg1983 mattg1983 is offline buying action

    Round Rock, TX
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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 12:35am) in reply to mman_status

    u think he looks down at AT and folds to that CO raise?
     12
  11. Jovial Gent Jovial Gent is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 12:52am) in reply to mman_status

    I normally don't like posting this stuff, and making random people better which decreases my expectation, but:

    If that's the same Matt Suspect that I know, he most certainly is capable of restealing light, especially if he doesn't know the villain and takes him for some random who will be raise/folding way too much in this spot. Yes, he reraised 4x to make it 100% obvious that he is committing himself vs you, but that is more likely a sign of a weaker hand than a stronger hand. If he makes it 3x, the open raiser still has almost 3x that reraise to shove on matt, and that would not be good for matt if he is commiting himself with a marginal hand to have this player misread fold equity and shove a hand he otherwise would fold into mattsuspect's vulnerable or weaker hand. Following this [correct] logic, you want the weaker hand to shove rather than to fold when you have a strong hand you are reraising for value, and thus he would be more likely to reraise smaller than 4x if he had a really big hand. This only applies if he is varying his reraise size in this spot, even if he is not, saying that there are no weaker A's in his range is absurd. Open-raise/folding here with AJ would be bad for so many reasons more in this day and age other than the fact that you're ahead of his range and are burning money if you don't call, since you typically will not find "better spots," regardless of who you are. The <span>absolute tightest</span> that MattSuspect will be restealing here, is any pair, A9s+ ATo+, QJo+, JTs+ and this is still likely much, much tighter than his actual resteal range. On top of being ahead of this range, and also having put in 1/8 your stack pre, if your default is raise/folding AJ on the button, and you are not open folding most A's or small pairs, or hands like KQ when its folded to you on the button with 20BBs, then that allows Matt to resteal even lighter to the point where he doesnt even need any equity against your range when you do call, because he will be picking off your raise/folds so often that he almost picks up enough chips to cover your full stack just on the times you are raise/folding. On top of this, he will actually have decent equity against your calling range when you finally wake up with your premium. He will have at least 30% against your super-nit range, because this is donkament poker and edges are quite small.
     11
  12. mattg1983 mattg1983 is offline buying action

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 12:54am) in reply to Jovial Gent

    delete plz
     12
  13. bbbbb33 bbbbb33 is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 1:12am) in reply to Genetikfreak

    i 4bet... because im a monkey, not because of any reasons atimos listed, hes such a donk.
     1
  14. stpauli111 stpauli111 is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 1:57am) in reply to bbbbb33

    all im saying is shoving here isn't about having fold equity.
    182 11
  15. darkcheck_ darkcheck_ is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 2:06am) in reply to Kochan

    getttt it in imo
     
  16. OneM24 OneM24 is offline beer pong champion

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 2:17am) in reply to mattg1983

    Why delete? Correct me if I'm wrong, but this IS a POKER DISCUSSION FORUM!!! He posted this hand for that exact reason. Which is, the expectation somebody would give their input on this play in this specific situation. Atimos did just that.

    If you want to be selfish and not post informative things in this forum, please just don't post at all. Because if you aren't helping or being informative, what are you doing when you post? Belittling somebody else's play? Answering a question with a question? ie. "Why on earth would you fold here?"...Instead of replying like Atimos did? Get real folks.

    Atimos, thank you for the post. I'm sure it helped many people understand position, situational play, and a few other things a little better if nothing else. Don't regret being a part of the solution to the growing problem we have on these boards. We appreciate the input.

    -ME
  17. mman_status mman_status is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 2:27am) in reply to stpauli111

    atimos ur post was much more articulate then mine could ever be but its just a matter of what his range is, ur saying his range is wider then i think it is.
  18. mman_status mman_status is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 2:36am) in reply to Jovial Gent

    227,736,432 games 0.005 secs 45,547,286,400 games/sec

    Board:
    Dead:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 46.425% 42.45% 03.97% 96679604 9046679.00 { AhJh }
    Hand 1: 53.575% 49.60% 03.97% 112963470 9046679.00 { 22+, ATs+, KQs, ATo+, KQo }

    Do those ranges look alright? With dead $ in the pot I guess I'm wrong about whether u should call or not. Still seems fairly close to me, maybe MattSuspect is looser then I realize I haven't played with him too much. If you throw in hands like A8s A9o it becomes a clear call.
  19. mattg1983 mattg1983 is offline buying action

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 3:46am) in reply to OneM24

    lighten up or "please just don't post at all"
     12
  20. OneM24 OneM24 is offline beer pong champion

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 3:59am) in reply to mattg1983

    For posts on above stated comment....look at OT IMO. This is PD :)

  21. hawks44bball hawks44bball is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 4:07am) in reply to Kochan

    i am grateful for opening this thread.

    thank you for posting atimos, and please post more imo
  22. SeRvE_VolleY SeRvE_VolleY is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 4:09am) in reply to hawks44bball

    your aussie....even if your behind you will run goot...us aussie are far too GREAT for any other nationality.....lol...oh no here comes the flaming.....plus as Garage13 said you both run goot and you are both aussies...so SHOVE them into his face with his QJs....
  23. SCTrojans SCTrojans is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 4:20am) in reply to Kochan

    I fold.

    Seat 7: puntnko (206342 in chips)

    +

    Seat 2: schmeek (348676 in chips)

    +

    MattSuspect: raises 74000 to 100000

    =

    fold
     13
  24. charder charder is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 4:35am) in reply to SCTrojans

    get it innnnnnnn
     
  25. Kochan Kochan is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 4:40am) in reply to charder

    trojans do u really think its a fold based on the factor that mattsuspect wouldnt reraise lightish with a big stack in bb when that player would need JJ+ to 4bet even tho he would still have room to fold to the 4bet???
     
    Thread Starter
  26. pokerjamers pokerjamers is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 4:41am) in reply to Kochan

    i am not folding this.
    299 
  27. SCTrojans SCTrojans is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 4:48am) in reply to Kochan

    i base a large part of my decision on the size of the reraise
     13
  28. Gettin Daize Gettin Daize is offline

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 4:50am) in reply to pokerjamers

    schmeeks stack makes this close
    2 211 
  29. mattg1983 mattg1983 is offline buying action

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 4:51am) in reply to SCTrojans

    given those stack sizes u dont think he 3x's it with AQ+, JJ+ ??? I actually think his range is weighted towards the more marginal hands in his range.
     12
  30. Movetime99 Movetime99 is online now

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    Feb 25th, 2008 (2/25/2008 4:58am) in reply to Kochan

    i have (in the past when i used to play online) played alot with matt suspect 30-60 limit and i always thought of him to be a very weak tilty player. Always dumping after a bad beat or play. That being said i believe he would make this move with a8-a10 easily maybe even k-9-kq
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