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500 bb deep cash game hand - What do you put my range on? villians?

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  1. banana4678 banana4678 is offline

    Pittsburgh, PA
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    Jun 22nd, 2010 (6/22/2010 7:14pm)

    hey guys,

    was playing $1/$2 on Cake last Friday and got into a pretty deep stacked hand w/ $950 behind vs villian w/ $1,400 behind. I dont have hand history, too lazy + at work so I will describe it best I can.

    8 Handed - Only 6 players call the preflop raise

    UTG : Limps
    UTG+1: Limps
    Villian (MP): Limps
    Hero (MP): (AcTc) Raises to $11
    CO: Calls ($100 behind)
    BB: Calls ($1,600 behind)

    UTG, UTG+1, Villian all call

    Pot ($66)

    Flop - 9c 2d 5c

    UTG: Check
    UTG+1: Check
    Villian: bets $2
    Hero: Calls $2
    CO: Moves all-in $100
    BB: Folds
    UTG: Folds
    UTG+1: Folds
    Villian: Calls $98
    Hero: ????

    What do you put my range on? Villians?

    There is some history:

    I got the $940 stack on two big hands. Only was an hr. deep in my session but I flopped a flush w/ Q9ss (BB) and Villian was in SB and led for $2 again post flop. I raised to $16. He called. Turn was a blank. He led for $2 again. I made it $48. 4th spade binked on the river, he led for $66, I called and he mucked a turned straight, no spade. So I basically doubled through with that and then flopped a boat few hands later and that is how I got the deep stack. So obviously the history of him betting $2 on an open-ended straight draw and on the turn when he hit the straight tells us something. I don't know what he put me on that hand given his half pot bet on the river when the 4th spade fell? Just kind of looks like he was stuck and decided to spew.

    I first sent this hand history to a couple friends w/ my hole cards but I kind of wanted to hear responses w/o any info. and then give my hole cards and then finally results.

    Also: Villian has a $2,200 stack when I sat down so he was bleeding pretty steady for an hr.
    Edited By: banana4678 Jun 22nd, 2010 at 09:13 PM
  2. snowman2k6 snowman2k6 is offline DO NOT TRADE -- MONEY TRANSFER SCAMMER

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    Jun 22nd, 2010 (6/22/2010 8:06pm) in reply to banana4678

    well it looks like u have fck all since u make it 11 pre then jus flat 2$ on flop not rly nuff info to estimate a range on u i guess villain culd have many hands any 9 any fd i dunno my read is obv u dont have a hand
  3. banana4678 banana4678 is offline

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    Jun 22nd, 2010 (6/22/2010 8:28pm) in reply to snowman2k6

    ok - my hand is AcTc - I guess you're right. Its kind of pointless to give the hand with no hole cards since my hand really looks like a missed flop. So given that whatre your thoughts. I know first instinct people say raise the flop but my point is if i raise flop do i really want to get it in 500 bb deep on a draw. Granted though raising does give me information on where I am at in the hand.
    Thread Starter
  4. rivverkiller rivverkiller is offline

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    Jun 22nd, 2010 (6/22/2010 9:05pm) in reply to banana4678

    As played, call the $100. Villain has proved that he'll let you pot control future streets and will still pay you off if you hit. If you think villain will put more money in with any draw then raising is probably best.
     
  5. snowman2k6 snowman2k6 is offline DO NOT TRADE -- MONEY TRANSFER SCAMMER

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    Jun 22nd, 2010 (6/22/2010 10:37pm) in reply to rivverkiller

    yea id prolly call the 100, since ur both deep n u have fd with 2 overs and i bet we get to see the river cheap here since guy clearly has no clue at how betting works. i wuldnt raise the flop especially with ur read n the guy doesnt like to fold.
  6. poisoneye1986 poisoneye1986 is offline

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    Jun 22nd, 2010 (6/22/2010 10:48pm) in reply to snowman2k6

    i would raise more PF like $18-$22. i would raise the $2 bet to $50. I would call the $100.
  7. chaz78 chaz78 is offline

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    Jun 22nd, 2010 (6/22/2010 10:49pm) in reply to snowman2k6

    WTF is with these stack sizes I guess I should play cash at cake poker bc I don't think I have ever seen/heard of a $1 $2 game with this much money on the table
    LOL $1600 $1400 $950 sick hard to believe

    With that said I can't see why in the world you are flatting a $2 flop bet into a $66 pot with 2 overs and the nut flush draw (this is terrible)...... and I completely agree with poisoneye1986 here raise flop bet to $40-$50 and call $100 as played
    Edited By: chaz78 Jun 22nd, 2010 at 10:55 PM
     
  8. GrayFOX22 GrayFOX22 is offline

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    Jun 22nd, 2010 (6/22/2010 11:17pm) in reply to rivverkiller

     
    Originally Posted by rivverkiller View Post

    As played, call the $100. Villain has proved that he'll let you pot control future streets and will still pay you off if you hit. If you think villain will put more money in with any draw then raising is probably best.

    I agree, but if you think that is going to be the case, then you need to be prepared to call it all off from a shove (or shove a raise). More reads on the player would be helpful. He could be an ok player that just had a huge stack and spazzed a little or he could be a total spazztard that just ran ridiculously hot at the table.

    I am inclined to flat without further reads on the player here. He already paid off and turned a made hand into a bluff. This seems like the type of guy who, if he has a flush draw, will prob get it in if it hits and you can get value from worse pairs if you pair up.

    A note, even if he is a complete spazz, getting it in on that flop is obviously going to be a really high variance play and he will still pay off if he hits worse, hence a flat, probably regardless if he is ok or really fishy.

    Yeah about the previous streets. If you are going to iso in this spot with ATs, you need to make it bigger with really deep stacks and even regardless. You are basically throwing out a pot sweetener. The flop is certainly a raise given your dynamic with the player. The reason is again he will call with worse draws and pay off when it hits. If he bets $2 and you get a two flats behind and turn nuts, you will have a very very difficult time getting it in or as much as possible without 3x potting on turn and river.

    Basically, I agree with what has been said.
    Edited By: GrayFOX22 Jun 22nd, 2010 at 11:20 PM
    Reason: More play.
     
  9. banana4678 banana4678 is offline

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    Jun 22nd, 2010 (6/22/2010 11:22pm) in reply to chaz78

    ok. I def. see the merit of raising the flop. At the time I called the flop b/c I did not want to be stuck on the turn if my flush didnt hit. I narrowed his range to one pair or flush draw. So i counted a ten, ace, or club as outs. After the short stack pushed for $100, and the villian flats then I thought the fact that i can even push him off given im pushing for $800 dollars more, does he really want to risk $800 w/ one pair. and if he wants to risk it w/ a lower flush draw then so be it. So i pushed.

    does anyone else think like this or am i in the minority?
    what do you guys put him on?

    Chaz i know it is horrid bad to call the $2. What do you think of my line of thinking. Or should i just be insta shoving and getting it in....which i did still post flop

    edit: just read grayfox after my last reply to chaz. i really like ur line of thinking w/ regards to high variance play. i mean how i thought of it was A, T, Club = outs vs. bad player who has no concept. lets get it in slightly behind and hopefully i bink or we get in vs lower flush draw and i fade his outs. such a high variance way of thinking.....hence why i tend to stack off more than i should.

    so majority is i raise the $2 to like $60, short stack pushes, so do i flat or call villians push if he reraises and isolates short stack?
    Edited By: banana4678 Jun 22nd, 2010 at 11:48 PM
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  10. GrayFOX22 GrayFOX22 is offline

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    Jun 22nd, 2010 (6/22/2010 11:44pm) in reply to banana4678

    I think that the problem with shoving is that he might just muck hands that you can severely value town when it hits. That and you have position on him too so it will make it easier to play you miss the turn. Your hand has a ton of equity against this guy and he will pay off, no need to shut him out.
     
  11. Diggs Diggs is offline

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    Jun 22nd, 2010 (6/22/2010 11:52pm) in reply to GrayFOX22

    I raise the flop to $45...as played I'd call
  12. Cody Torke Cody Torke is offline

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    Jun 23rd, 2010 (6/23/2010 1:25am) in reply to Diggs

    I would def. shove... If he folds and you missed out on some value oh well.. a win is a win. anyway I think about this situation I shove

    what was the outcome
  13. banana4678 banana4678 is offline

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    Jun 23rd, 2010 (6/23/2010 2:16am) in reply to Cody Torke

    he had KK (no spade) and i bricked. interesting to play KK that way obviously. thoughts on that to those who replied?
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  14. litlebullet litlebullet is offline

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    Jun 23rd, 2010 (6/23/2010 2:48am) in reply to banana4678

     
    Originally Posted by banana4678 View Post

    he had KK (no spade) and i bricked. interesting to play KK that way obviously. thoughts on that to those who replied?

    yes flop bet of his is good... he has a monster he doesn't want to bet anyone out.
  15. General $cum General $cum is offline

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    Jun 23rd, 2010 (6/23/2010 9:11am) in reply to litlebullet

    I get the feelind this villain is unconcerned with your range judging by the limp and flat call w KK and the he played. limp, limp flat call w KK you raise to 11 and he still smooth calls. That makes little sense, since he was bleeding. Your safest play is to check raise him to 200-230 scare him. He may put you on a set. So you slow him down and see your free turn river. Its a strange way to play KK. You should have made it a little more pre. I would put your range on any number of hands that deep stacked. In a game that deep stacked its all about implied odds. It seems like a shitty game to be in with stack sizes and such. It seems an abc strategy works best in this particular game
  16. Pugnacious D Pugnacious D is offline

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    Jun 24th, 2010 (6/24/2010 1:54am) in reply to General $cum

    Raise 14-16 Pre
    Raise flop to 50
    Flat 100 as played (although shoving doesnt seem like a huge mistake, just high variance against a fishy player)

    The weird thing about this hand is that I find it easy to narrow both the villain's and your range. Him betting $2 tells me he probably does not have a set (he would bet more, or more likely go for the c/r), and you calling $2 means that you do not have a set because raising the min bet with your set is pretty much mandatory here. I dont see you or him having two pair here either because nobody isos with these hand combos pref and nobody calls with them either . So this limits both your ranges to flush draws and overpairs imo.

    If you raise the flop, the ss probably would have been pushed out and the big stack most likely would flat because i get the gist he is a fishy calling station. Turn comes I expect villain to min bet gay again or check to you. At that point you can probably check behind and take the free card and not lose any more money in the hand if the river is a blank.
    Edited By: Pugnacious D Jun 24th, 2010 at 01:55 AM
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