would you shove 22 here?

I'd be shoving here

edit: I thought the bb was 300, but now noticing its 250 I think I'm still shoving but it's not as easy

with those 2 i would shove (i think, my reads might be off)
88 is prolly closest, could be fold. 77 fold TT go

all in is my play

there are better spots

seems like a really tough fold in this day and age i think i get it in

my first instinct was to definitely shove, same with 88...77 is about where I am folding...but Dave's initial response , "would you shove 22 here?" made me think about it more...and I think shoving down to 22s is almost fine here (assuming we are shoving 77,88,99) because the villains 3b/call or get in range vs SCTrojans is going to be mostly big pairs/AK/AQ and sometimes 88-TT, i doubt villain is calling w/ 77-88 if we are cold 4 bet shoving here...and he is of course calling with AK,probably AQ based on everyone's positions and an assumed aggressive dynamic. any pair would be flipping against those hands, and dominated against the 5 pairs or so that he would call off against ur shove. essentially dave is right that 22 plays similarly to 7s here (not sure about 88 and 99 only because they could be in villains value range vs both of you) he's going to be snap calling with AK/AQ/99+ and folding every other hand, probably making this a fairly good shove with a lot more holdings than I initially thought.

also I would like it even more if the villains both had a cpl blinds more...if trojans or slammed both had over 10k (over 40 blinds), slammed's 3b for value range becomes significantly narrower, which would make the shove even better since he is going to show up light often

If slammedfire still plays anything like he used to when I was grinding cash games, and I imagine he does, I would very happily get it in here. I met him once in a live cash game and when I asked his online name he just told me to think of the spewiest preflop reg I could think of - I got it first try.

I think I'm happily putting it in here.

 

Originally Posted by Vekked

If you know slammedfire at all then yes, this is a pretty clear jam (as well as 88, 77, 66... it gets closer below that mayyybe but I imagine any pair if fine). Without knowing anything about slammedfire I think TT+ is probably more like it. But yea, he'll definitely be looser than most people in this spot, especially if SCTrojans has been opening a lot.

I don't quite agree that 22=99 here as dave said though.

maybe 22 doens't equal 99, cause I think I mentioned that I do think 88 and 99 can be in his value range w/ particular dynamic/players.... but can you explain the difference between shoving 77 and 22 here, if the villain can 100% never be 3b/calling (either SCT or your shove) with 66/77?

the point is, if u shove anything here, there is a particular range of hands, that slammedfire will call sctrojans shoves with, and a more narrow range of hands, to call your shove with. that range just never includes pairs below 7s (and im hard pressed to believe 88 is in there as well, at least for getting in against u), so if ur shoving 22 or 88...ur getting called the times he has 99+, AK/AQs ,and getting snap folds from his air (which is probably a pretty high % of the time) i don't see much a difference between 22 and 88 in this particular situation to be honest. (altho in game I'm certainly folding 22-66, but now wondering that maybe I shouldn't be...) i think it just comes down to how often the villain is gonna be light (and just 3b/folding) and then it becomes a simple math problem to see if the times you take down the pot uncontested will makeup for the times you run into the value portion of his range and are dominated and/or flipping with AK/AQ

 

Originally Posted by apestyles

Just to be nitpicky 77 does play a full 4 percent better equity wise versus 88+,AJs+,AQo+than 22...

Hehehe, i just wanted to write this :)

 

Originally Posted by the_dean22

maybe 22 doens't equal 99, cause I think I mentioned that I do think 88 and 99 can be in his value range w/ particular dynamic/players.... but can you explain the difference between shoving 77 and 22 here, if the villain can 100% never be 3b/calling (either SCT or your shove) with 66/77?

the point is, if u shove anything here, there is a particular range of hands, that slammedfire will call sctrojans shoves with, and a more narrow range of hands, to call your shove with. that range just never includes pairs below 7s (and im hard pressed to believe 88 is in there as well, at least for getting in against u), so if ur shoving 22 or 88...ur getting called the times he has 99+, AK/AQs ,and getting snap folds from his air (which is probably a pretty high % of the time) i don't see much a difference between 22 and 88 in this particular situation to be honest. (altho in game I'm certainly folding 22-66, but now wondering that maybe I shouldn't be...) i think it just comes down to how often the villain is gonna be light (and just 3b/folding) and then it becomes a simple math problem to see if the times you take down the pot uncontested will makeup for the times you run into the value portion of his range and are dominated and/or flipping with AK/AQ

Apestyles basically said what I was doing to say. I think we underestimate the amount of equity lost when 22 gets counterfeited or something and 77 doesn't. Depending on the villains exact range of pairs in his value range, it changes some things significantly. The more pairs in his range the bigger the gap between 99, to 77, to 22 (like ape said if his value range has 88+). If his value range of pairs was as tight as TT+ the difference between 99 and 55 is effectively nothing and shoving one but not the other makes absolutely no sense. So yea it's a little nit-picky but I don't think this is quite the spot where 22=99.

I agree that it is mostly going to be a matter of how much fold equity we have here since the air range from 1 reg to another could be vastly different whereas the value range is going to be similar with these stacks within a few combos.

 

Originally Posted by doubledave22

would you shove 22 here?

[ ] 22 has the same value as 99 in a spot like this


meh, just saw thedean kind of beat me to this...but yeah, 22 def isn't the same as 99...maybe 22 and 66...but even so, there is a slight equity difference in those hands (albeit on 2 or 3%) that comes into play when spots are real close

i'm supposed to be the withered old nit, 99 is an easy shove here surely...