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99 UTG 14BB

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  1. Limo Wreck Limo Wreck is offline

    Fullerton, CA
    United States

    Posts: 1,003
    Joined: Jun 07

    Jul 23rd, 2010 (7/23/2010 6:52am)

    table is playing pretty tight/passive

    Full Tilt Poker Game #22524534163: The Fifty-Fifty (168819147), Table 15 - 500/1000 Ante 125 - No Limit Hold'em - 01:15:06 ET - 2010/07/23
    Seat 1: ToNiSiNz (10,395)
    Seat 2: AceFetish (15,368)
    Seat 3: rafaello 123 (33,465)
    Seat 4: 8balldeluxe (12,463)
    Seat 5: Limo Wreck (14,320)
    Seat 6: jakob1337 (36,814)
    Seat 7: agmich08 (30,547)
    Seat 8: pugilist68 (25,385)
    Seat 9: Jake Schindler (13,409)
    ToNiSiNz antes 125
    AceFetish antes 125
    rafaello 123 antes 125
    8balldeluxe antes 125
    Limo Wreck antes 125
    jakob1337 antes 125
    agmich08 antes 125
    pugilist68 antes 125
    Jake Schindler antes 125
    rafaello 123 posts the small blind of 500
    8balldeluxe posts the big blind of 1,000
    The button is in seat #2
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Limo Wreck [9s 9h]
    AceFetish: lol donked
    Limo Wreck has 15 seconds left to act
    Limo Wreck raises to 2,500

    So is it better to just open shove here, or fold? and why?

    Please, short answers aren't very helpful, I'm looking for a real thought process.
  2. mdshack14 mdshack14 is offline

    Auburn Hills, MI
    United States

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    Jul 23rd, 2010 (7/23/2010 7:01am) in reply to Limo Wreck

    I actually have a question. Are you raising to induce a shove or what? What is you plan with this hand by raising like that?
     
  3. zander zander is offline anomaly in his crotch

    Malaysia

    Posts: 6,035
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    Jul 23rd, 2010 (7/23/2010 7:01am) in reply to Limo Wreck

    Really quickly... Anyone competent at that table is not going to put you on AA or KK because shoving isn't the most +ev way to play those. Therefore They'll call a bit lighter than you think, meaning certainly AQ and probably lighter than that. 99 is fine vs that calling range and i'm sure most calculations for ranges with those hands in them make this a +ev shove.

    I shove this no matter if the table is loose or tight generally...
  4. Limo Wreck Limo Wreck is offline

    Fullerton, CA
    United States

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    Jul 23rd, 2010 (7/23/2010 7:07am) in reply to zander

    @mdshack

    My plan was to call a shove. I think I'm a coinflip to a shoving range and my thought at the time was to double up or go home.

    @zander, makes sense, thx.
    Thread Starter
  5. fly44 fly44 is offline

    United States

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    Jul 23rd, 2010 (7/23/2010 7:32am) in reply to Limo Wreck

    raise/call is definitely best but I mix it up once in a while and shove, plus that route cuts down on misclicks.
    521 1
  6. Limo Wreck Limo Wreck is offline

    Fullerton, CA
    United States

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    Jul 23rd, 2010 (7/23/2010 7:41am) in reply to fly44

    @ fly, thx.

    I've been debating w/ a friend which is better, open shove or raise/call. He says open shove 100%, I like a raise/call because I think it gives people an illusion of fold equity and they might shove lighter than what they call an open shove with.

    He says it's a mistake to induce action because you want to avoid a coinflip here as much as possible and just pick up the blinds.
    Thread Starter
  7. poisoneye1986 poisoneye1986 is offline

    Cincinnati, OH
    United States

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    Jul 23rd, 2010 (7/23/2010 7:41am) in reply to Limo Wreck

    i like shove at most tables too stay out of a situation where someone especially from the blinds flats you and puts you in an uncomfortable spot post. at a tight table that probably wont happen. you cant really go wrong either way/
  8. kxywrx kxywrx is offline

    Long Beach, CA
    United States

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    Jul 23rd, 2010 (7/23/2010 7:51am) in reply to Limo Wreck

    depends on what you've been doing lately. if you've been shoving @ this blind level with your stack and the table has seen you do this, i'd be more inclined to just shove. if you've been raising w/ your stack then i'd like a r/c more
     
  9. shanetrain22 shanetrain22 is offline

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    Jul 23rd, 2010 (7/23/2010 7:52am) in reply to kxywrx

    aipf
     1
  10. dudlri dudlri is offline

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    Jul 23rd, 2010 (7/23/2010 7:56am) in reply to shanetrain22

    I personally shove for the most part, depending on if you've been raise/folding w <20bbs. if i've been working on short stacks for a while and open shoved a few hands before i just jam.
  11. xBlah xBlah is offline

    Auburn, NY
    United States

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    Jul 23rd, 2010 (7/23/2010 7:57am) in reply to dudlri

    just shovel
     
  12. okse54 okse54 is offline

    New York, NY
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    Jul 23rd, 2010 (7/23/2010 12:33pm) in reply to xBlah

    raise calling 99 vs certain players MIGHT be slightly better when only looking at this specific hand since a player might think they have FE and shove over the top a little wider. but i think most players in a $55 tourny know that u arent raise/folding 14bbs from utg and they will likely treat it as a shove, or may even tighten their get it in range since it looks rly strong.

    but i would just shove my whole range here since im gona be looking to shove hands like KTs QJs and it rly hurts our equity on those hands if we are r/c 99+ since when we shove QJs ppl could safely take 99+/AQ+ out of our range and we will lose alot of fold equity. i think balancing our shove range here with 14 bbs is more important than the slight POSSIBLE gain in equity we gain by raise calling 99+
     
  13. ManchVegasPwn ManchVegasPwn is offline

    Manchester, NH
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    Jul 23rd, 2010 (7/23/2010 2:00pm) in reply to okse54

    the problem with 2.5x'ing in this spot is that your going to get hood-flatted by rando's all day and going to have almost 2x PSB when it gets to the flop assuming just 1 player flats you, if you get flatted in two spots, its even worse... likely being oop for the rest of the hand, if you jam most flops, our opponents are going to fold when they miss and call when they hit, so you lose the pre flop value of your hand. At this point of the tourney, with 15BB, can't really afford to play a pot that we're not going to be playing for stacks.
     1
  14. DWilliams DWilliams is offline

    FL
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    Jul 23rd, 2010 (7/23/2010 2:04pm) in reply to ManchVegasPwn

     
    Originally Posted by ManchVegasPwn View Post

    the problem with 2.5x'ing in this spot is that your going to get hood-flatted by rando's all day and going to have almost 2x PSB when it gets to the flop assuming just 1 player flats you, if you get flatted in two spots, its even worse... likely being oop for the rest of the hand, if you jam most flops, our opponents are going to fold when they miss and call when they hit, so you lose the pre flop value of your hand. At this point of the tourney, with 15BB, can't really afford to play a pot that we're not going to be playing for stacks.

    wins the thread
  15. matze_widi matze_widi is offline

    Stuttgart
    Germany

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    Jul 23rd, 2010 (7/23/2010 2:27pm) in reply to ManchVegasPwn

     
    Originally Posted by ManchVegasPwn View Post

    the problem with 2.5x'ing in this spot is that your going to get hood-flatted by rando's all day and going to have almost 2x PSB when it gets to the flop assuming just 1 player flats you, if you get flatted in two spots, its even worse... likely being oop for the rest of the hand, if you jam most flops, our opponents are going to fold when they miss and call when they hit, so you lose the pre flop value of your hand. At this point of the tourney, with 15BB, can't really afford to play a pot that we're not going to be playing for stacks.

    pretty much the reason why a shove is better imo then r/c
     
  16. Limo Wreck Limo Wreck is offline

    Fullerton, CA
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    Jul 23rd, 2010 (7/23/2010 6:27pm) in reply to matze_widi

    Awesome! Thanks for the thoughtful replies everyone. Turns out I just took down the blinds on this hand and ended busting w/ KK<66 AIPF a couple hands later.

    Yeah I think I'll just shove from now on.
    Thread Starter
  17. P33J P33J is offline

    Bloomington, IN
    United States

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    Jul 23rd, 2010 (7/23/2010 6:50pm) in reply to ManchVegasPwn

     
    Originally Posted by ManchVegasPwn View Post

    the problem with 2.5x'ing in this spot is that your going to get hood-flatted by rando's all day and going to have almost 2x PSB when it gets to the flop assuming just 1 player flats you, if you get flatted in two spots, its even worse... likely being oop for the rest of the hand, if you jam most flops, our opponents are going to fold when they miss and call when they hit, so you lose the pre flop value of your hand. At this point of the tourney, with 15BB, can't really afford to play a pot that we're not going to be playing for stacks.

    Post more
     
  18. winkie23 winkie23 is offline

    CT
    United States

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    Jul 23rd, 2010 (7/23/2010 9:39pm) in reply to ManchVegasPwn

     
    Originally Posted by ManchVegasPwn View Post

    the problem with 2.5x'ing in this spot is that your going to get hood-flatted by rando's all day and going to have almost 2x PSB when it gets to the flop assuming just 1 player flats you, if you get flatted in two spots, its even worse... likely being oop for the rest of the hand, if you jam most flops, our opponents are going to fold when they miss and call when they hit, so you lose the pre flop value of your hand. At this point of the tourney, with 15BB, can't really afford to play a pot that we're not going to be playing for stacks.

    This man knows what he speaks! I used to 2.5x here as well, but now this is a shove for me almost 100% of the time. You really can't afford to get flatted by randoms with hands like QJ and whatnot...
  19. bef99hwk bef99hwk is offline

    Manhattan, KS
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    Jul 23rd, 2010 (7/23/2010 9:55pm) in reply to winkie23

    raise half your stack and still get the hood flats like 88 or make it an amt you are never folding to on the flop like a pot size bet
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