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AA utg

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  1. br_buster br_buster is offline

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    Mar 23rd, 2011 (3/23/2011 1:27pm)

    Hey folks,
    yesterday i played a $55 MTT on stars.
    During the middlestages I had like 15 BBs holding AA utg. I've had a tight, solid image at that point. The table is full of reshovestacks (around 20BBs).
    I've been in a similar situation a few times now and wonder:

    Woludn't it seem weaker to openshove the nuts instead of raising with a 14-17BB stack (w/ the intention of calling an all-in obv), especially from early position? If there are a few regs at your table, I doubt they put AA,KK (or even QQ?) in your shovingrange. Most likely, this looks like 88-JJ, AQ, AK, doesn't it? So if I sit on the button w/ TT for example, utg shoved and it's folded to me, am I really folding TT in that situation? I don't think so, whereas if I see a decent reg opening utg w/ a 17BB stack I would be scared and probably muck TT, but having a hard time folding JJ and up, AK. Yes, of course it depends on the dynamic, reads on the villain etc. I think in general, when you are playing against players you haven't played against before in a tournament w/ a buy-in of 55$ and up, it might be better to just shove it in. Of course, if everybody folds you may think "Damn, am I stupid? I lost sooo much value by not standard openraising..!"

    I would like to hear some opinions:)
     
  2. SSG SSG is offline

    New Zealand

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    Mar 23rd, 2011 (3/23/2011 1:44pm) in reply to br_buster

    some people like to call AA utg to induce a raise so they can shove..
  3. br_buster br_buster is offline

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    Mar 23rd, 2011 (3/23/2011 2:03pm) in reply to SSG

    that's way too transparent if you are playing versus solid players in my oinion
     
    Thread Starter
  4. BenJamin327 BenJamin327 is offline

    Rapid City, SD
    United States

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    Mar 23rd, 2011 (3/23/2011 2:49pm) in reply to br_buster

    iv thought about this recently too, i think its a fairly decent idea. you could also do it from like button/cutoff with 14 bbs
  5. winkie23 winkie23 is offline

    CT
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    Mar 23rd, 2011 (3/23/2011 2:57pm) in reply to BenJamin327

    I don't think it's transparent at all tbh and I would agree it looks more like a mid-pair or AK, AQ. The only reason I might open for 2.2x-2.5x is because there are so many reshove stacks behind you, there's probably a good chance one of them gives you the pile. If the stacks were generally bigger, I think open shoving this is just fine.
  6. tyson219 tyson219 is offline Moderator

    New York, NY
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    Mar 23rd, 2011 (3/23/2011 4:35pm) in reply to winkie23

    It really depends on what you've been doing in prior spots like this. If you're regularly jamming 15bbs and then 2x from UTG, it's pretty transparent that you have a monster. If instead you regularly open 2x with your entire range, then opening 2x with AA UTG is fine.

    If you're playing with competent players, the only thing that matters is balancing your range and playing consistently. I prefer open jamming my entire range with <15bbs because I hate getting flatted and having no room to maneuver and I hate raise/calling with the bottom of my range.

    All that said, if you have no history at the table/with the players, I think an open jam seems weaker than a 2x raise.
     969 
  7. JaySpo JaySpo is offline

    Mount Holly, NJ
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    Mar 23rd, 2011 (3/23/2011 6:04pm) in reply to tyson219

    i've thought about this a lot recently too. as somebody else said, if you've been open jamming your range from EP before this, then you have to open jam AA just so it's not obvious you have a monster. But I think even if you're at a new table, where nobody has a read on you yet, then jamming 10-15bb's with AA utg is probably still profitable. I'd assume you'll probably still get called by AJ+, 99+ and sometimes KQ from players in the cutoff, button or blinds.

    Think about it, if somebody shoves UTG 12 bb's and you have 99 or AQ on the button, are you going to fold? I don't think i am, esp if its folded to me. Just please don't ever limp.
  8. Stringer Hell Stringer Hell is offline

    Madison, WI
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    Mar 23rd, 2011 (3/23/2011 6:17pm) in reply to JaySpo

    Who's calling a UTG 15 BB shove at a 9-handed table w AJo...
  9. JaySpo JaySpo is offline

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    Mar 23rd, 2011 (3/23/2011 6:49pm) in reply to Stringer Hell

     
    Originally Posted by Stringer Hell View Post

    Who's calling a UTG 15 BB shove at a 9-handed table w AJo...


    I mean i personally wouldn't, but i see it happen all the time. Like i said i'd probably call on the button or in blinds with 99 or AQ, but i don't think the notion of getting called by AJ or KQss is that far-fetched.
  10. rhinodash rhinodash is online now

    Las Vegas, NV
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    Mar 23rd, 2011 (3/23/2011 7:27pm) in reply to JaySpo

    If their are multiple regs at your table and they are observant then you almost have to shove here assuming you regularly shove 15 BB stacks, as previously stated its called balancing your range and must be done to allow you to get action on your monsters or folds on your weaker holdings. Basically by shoving your whole range you play UTG with 15 BBs UTG makes your play close to unexploitable vs regs as they will not know if you are shoving the top or bottom of your range... with 1 or 2 regs and a bunch of randoms then you should play your hand to extract the most value which is probably min raising or 2.2xishing.
  11. DibbZ DibbZ is offline

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    Mar 23rd, 2011 (3/23/2011 8:17pm) in reply to Talewine09

    If you have shoved a few times already then yes I'm shoving AA with a 15bb stack, otherwise likely min raising trying to get action from the blinds or medium strength hands from bigger stacks.
  12. GrimeRat420 GrimeRat420 is offline

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    Mar 23rd, 2011 (3/23/2011 10:06pm) in reply to DibbZ

    im never open-shoving here, probly minraising or 2.2x if its a reg-heavy table and limping sometimes but rarely. by shoving i think r pushing a lot of hands that might flat or shove, such as kqss, aj, and pp's. u shouldnt be afraid of a flat from behind either imo
     
  13. Getumboy Getumboy is offline

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    Mar 23rd, 2011 (3/23/2011 11:31pm) in reply to GrimeRat420

     
    Originally Posted by GrimeRat420 View Post

    im never open-shoving here, probly minraising or 2.2x if its a reg-heavy table and limping sometimes but rarely. by shoving i think r pushing a lot of hands that might flat or shove, such as kqss, aj, and pp's. u shouldnt be afraid of a flat from behind either imo

    There are a lot of factors that you need to consider. How long at the current table, your betting pattern with similar stacks, etc etc. With the reshove stacks behind I honestly like the 2x UTG only if you haven't been open shoving this similar size stack at the table already. I think you lose value by open shoving because of the hands that may fold like 77-TT AJ/AQ(may be a little too tight imo) but if you 2x UTG all of these hands may shove on you because of the perceived FE which increases their value versus calling a shove with them. Just my $.02
  14. ShipIt2Dubs ShipIt2Dubs is offline

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    Mar 23rd, 2011 (3/23/2011 11:50pm) in reply to Getumboy

    I min raise UTG with your stack there...if it gets reopened, great. If not, a weaker hand will be shoving into you or you are going hu with the bb. Either way, Im taking my chances there with your short stack.
  15. Jwilkinson Jwilkinson is offline

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    Mar 24th, 2011 (3/24/2011 12:21am) in reply to ShipIt2Dubs

    i'd limp and hope someone raises
  16. grapsfan grapsfan is offline Head Curmudgeon

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    Mar 24th, 2011 (3/24/2011 4:07am) in reply to Jwilkinson

     
    Originally Posted by Jwilkinson View Post

    i'd limp and hope someone raises

    Are you limping with any other hands, especially non-monsters? If not, that's really transparent, and therefore, terrible.

    Whatever play you make, you have to make across the entirety of your range. If you want to shove with AJ, AQ, K9, 72, whatever...you have to shove with AA as well, or else you're just telling everyone else to fold because you have a huge hand.
     
  17. mcandrews3rd mcandrews3rd is online now

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    Mar 24th, 2011 (3/24/2011 4:42am) in reply to grapsfan

    personally i prefer raise calling these stacks than shoving, especially with the higher part of our range

    their calling range is smaller than possible shoving ranges here, give them enough rope to hang themselves
    183 1
  18. garyak1 garyak1 is offline

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    Mar 25th, 2011 (3/25/2011 3:15am) in reply to mcandrews3rd

    2.2x open has a good chance one of the reshove stacks pulls the trigger cause there r so many of them behind u
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