1. This post is for the low limit SNG players out there. The following play is not recommended for High Buyin SNGs:

    LongShotVT was my student in this game, and I directed him to play the hand this way.

    Hand and thought process first, lesson after.

    PokerStars Game #6362407705: Tournament #32281722, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2006/09/21 - 00:28:55 (ET)
    Table '32281722 1' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
    Seat 1: hustlerboy (790 in chips)
    Seat 2: xxMaloneyxx (1750 in chips)
    Seat 3: ABC3 (1140 in chips)
    Seat 4: whipit8 (1850 in chips)
    Seat 5: Victim (1570 in chips)
    Seat 6: Corcskrue (1030 in chips)
    Seat 7: luigis (2050 in chips)
    Seat 8: longshotVT (1920 in chips)
    Seat 9: tgstrat (1400 in chips)
    whipit8: posts small blind 15
    Victim: posts big blind 30
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Corcskrue: folds
    luigis: folds
    longshotVT: is dealt [2h 2s] and calls 30

    My thought process here is that if we flop a set against players who will play one pair very strong, we have a good chance to double.

    tgstrat: folds
    hustlerboy: folds
    xxMaloneyxx: folds
    ABC3: calls 30
    whipit8: calls 15
    Victim: checks
    *** FLOP *** [2d 6h Ts]

    Very non-threatening flop. No probable big draws.

    whipit8: checks
    Victim: checks
    longshotVT: checks
    ABC3: bets 60
    whipit8: folds
    Victim: calls 60
    longshotVT: calls 60

    Since the flop is non-threatening, I instruct Longshot to smooth-call, thinking that if a threatening card fell on the turn, we could maximize value by check-raising ABC3, who as the aggressor here, was likely to fire again.

    *** TURN *** [2d 6h Ts] [8s]
    Threatening turn card.
    Victim: checks
    longshotVT: checks

    I have ABC3 on a ten here, and expect ABC3 to bet again, in which case we would go over the top, winning a nice sized pot while avoiding many of the pitfalls that await on the river.

    ABC3: checks

    He foils our check-raise by checking what now appears to be A6. (third pair)

    *** RIVER *** [2d 6h Ts 8s] [Ad]

    Bingo! Since Ace-rag is an often played hand at these levels, this card likely helped one or both of our opponents....this is our opportunity!

    Victim: bets 90

    Comes out betting lightly at the ace, and called the flop bet, so looks like two pair.

    longshotVT: raises 1740 to 1830 and is all-in

    ...and two-pair is played like the nuts at this level, so it's go time with our set! This is a *value* bet in a $5 SNG.

    ABC3: folds
    Victim: calls 1390 and is all-in
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    longshotVT: shows [2h 2s] (three of a kind, Deuces)
    Victim: shows [As 2c] (two pair, Aces and Deuces)
    longshotVT collected 3260 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 3260 | Rake 0
    Board [2d 6h Ts 8s Ad]
    Seat 1: hustlerboy folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 2: xxMaloneyxx folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 3: ABC3 (button) folded on the River
    Seat 4: whipit8 (small blind) folded on the Flop
    Seat 5: Victim (big blind) showed [As 2c] and lost with two pair, Aces and Deuces
    Seat 6: Corcskrue folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 7: luigis folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 8: longshotVT showed [2h 2s] and won (3260) with three of a kind, Deuces
    Seat 9: tgstrat folded before Flop (didn't bet)

    In the example above, a traditional value-raise on the river of, say, 240, makes the most sense in a high limit $100 SNG. Your average quality high-limit player will only call your shove if you are beat.

    There are two mistakes you can make here on the river in this $5 SNG, when your choice is to raise allin or to 240:

    1. Raising allin for 1830, when your opponent will call only your value bet. Cost: 150.

    2. Raising 150 more, when your opponent would have called your allin. Cost: 1590.

    Which mistake would you rather make? Even if you are right here about 20% of the time, the allin is clearly more profitable. I see too many good players making mistake #2 in the $5 SNGs.

    I hear a lot of low-limit players say they want to play higher because the players are better, and more likely to understand the plays they make. Of course, it's never true that a player can beat a higher level who can't beat a lower one.

    Poker is like judo. You use your opponents weight against them. For every poor play, there is a good counterplay, for instance:

    If they call too much, you bet more chips with a hand, and don't bluff much.
    If they fold too much, you bet more often and bluff more.
    If they chase bad draws, you bet more, so that they pay more.
    If they call allin reraises preflop with ace-ten, you shove allin with ace-king!
    If they play two pair like the nuts, you shove allin with a set.
    If they play top pair like it's the nuts, you play your top two HARD!

    That, my good friends, is how you beat the lowest levels.

    If you aren't using these tactics, the low limit player will "DONK" you out! And you just might be posting here about how you are "so unlucky", and "can't get away from these bad beats by HORRIBLE players"! We might even see you pen a "rigged" post.

    Take this to heart.... and adjust to your opponents!
  2. rigged

    jk great post
  3. good stuff the points at the end are the key to winning the low level sngs.
  4. TY, this should really help me get back on track. mucho gracias
  5. Would your strategy be the same in say the 16 or 27 turbos?
     
  6. Great post, given my lack of bankroll management skills I have moved from 6 dollar turbos to 60 dollar turbos and back many times. One thing I did not always do was adjust to my opponents until I had ran maybe 9-10 sets at a given level. Really getting inside the players mind and knowing how they will react and play in certain scenarios is a gold mine in any form of poker. Thanks for sharing your thought process on this interesting hand which illustrates numerous concepts which I have noticed but never actually seen written out this clear and concise.
     
  7. In a $16, yes, in a $27, probably not.
    Thread Starter
  8. sigh... i would call the shove with AT, mayyybe even A6 = (
    131
  9. I have always thought that low level SNG's are a different game to high levels, and if they are approached as such can be profitable.

    Thanks for the excellent post, I can see you are well worth your hourly fee! Article, woman, articles!
  10. The articles are coming. :)
    Thread Starter
  11. Sklansky devotes a chapter to this in his latest. It works where stacks are deep, obv.

    I don't like your check on the turn here. I don't see how you can possibly put ABC on a Ten. Nothing he has done has indicated that he does have one. [Edit - doh, misread hadn and thought T cam on the turn but the rest follows - at the $5 he's still raising you with TP here, let's get the pot big and make it easier to get all the chips in the middle).

    If you are right, what's wrong with value betting here. If he has AT or KT here, he'll almost certainly raise - you can then decide whether to put him all in on the turn or wait for the river. If he caught a bit of the flop he may stilll call. If he is on a gutshot with A9, A7, K9 or K7 you can't price him in.

    You have two villains left here, you need to built the pot and price out anyone with a 9 or a 7. There's also a spade draw to worry about, though it's unlikely.
  12. 5 mins after I read this thread.

    Hand #35313135-19 at SnG-0003l (No Limit Hold'em Sit and Go)
    Started at 21/Sep/06 12:04:21

    dam1 is at seat 0 with 950.
    Boop749 is at seat 1 with 1635.
    Navy Dad is at seat 2 with 2185.
    voidnilzero1 is at seat 3 with 1420.
    22 doug is at seat 4 with 1760.
    gallilaw is at seat 5 with 1140.
    studlyness is at seat 7 with 2910.
    mtbantix is at seat 8 with 1510.
    Avsfanatic is at seat 9 with 1490.
    The button is at seat 5.

    studlyness posts the small blind of 15.
    mtbantix posts the big blind of 30.

    dam1: -- --
    Boop749: -- --
    Navy Dad: -- --
    voidnilzero1: -- --
    22 doug: -- --
    gallilaw: -- --
    studlyness: -- --
    mtbantix: -- --
    Avsfanatic: 3h 3d

    Pre-flop:

    Avsfanatic calls. dam1 calls. Boop749 raises to
    165. Navy Dad folds. voidnilzero1 folds. 22 doug
    folds. gallilaw folds. studlyness folds. mtbantix
    folds. Avsfanatic calls. dam1 calls.

    Flop (board: As Td 3c):

    Avsfanatic checks. dam1 checks. Boop749 bets 30.
    Avsfanatic calls. dam1 calls.

    Turn (board: As Td 3c 8h):

    Avsfanatic checks. dam1 checks. Boop749 bets 630.
    Avsfanatic goes all-in for 1295. dam1 folds.
    Boop749 calls.

    Tournament all-in showdown -- players show:

    Boop749 shows Ac Ks.
    Avsfanatic shows 3h 3d.

    River (board: As Td 3c 8h 9h):

    (no action in this round)

    Showdown:

    Boop749 has Ac Ks As Td 9h: a pair of aces.
    Avsfanatic has 3h 3d As Td 3c: three threes.

    Hand #35313135-19 Summary:

    No rake is taken for this hand.
    Avsfanatic wins 3220 with three threes.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
  13. Good post -- I would try to build the pot both on the flop and the turn, so I think the hand is being played too passively. For you to get his whole stack the perfect card is going to have to come. By this I mean, if the opponent really had top pair, which is most likely, there is probably a 80% chance he would call an all in check raise on the flop or the turn. At this low a level I doubt if the players would even be suspicious of the min check raise on the flop -- all in on the turn.
  14. Standard? You raise 660 into a ~1400 pot on the river. Not really the same as overbetting your whole stack into a 250 chip pot. Nh though.
  15. Why would you slow play a set at a 5 dollar sng especially if you "put him on top pair". Low limit donks don't have a fold button. If that dude doesnt hit 2 pair on river you get minimum value for the flopped set. Horrible "advice" in my opinion.
  16. do you think this works mostly on normal sngs or can it also be applied to turbo sngs?

    I'm currently playing the 1-table $5 sngs and I'm experimenting with scott fishman's tactic from "online ace" (super tight early and push or fold once you reach a stack with only 8 BB or the bubble). sor far I've had pretty good results with it ... but to get a first place you have to play an hour or longer - so it's pretty much a grind, even if you 4-table.

    therefore I'm currently thinking about:
    -) switching to $5 turbos
    -) playing $10 sngs

    any thoughts?

    btw: thanks for the "don't limp on my shit bitch" advice from your free lesson a few weeks ago. so far it has worked to perfection ;-)
  17. I think this is another great post by Jennifear,

    First I was very anxieus to try the low-limit sng after I read the article by Jennifear on how to manage your bank roll. Before that I was doing well until I tilt and went to higher limit and lose everything. But then I was very desappointed of the player's skill at the 6$ sng, these guys just going all-in all the time with nothing. I remember I get my pocket A's kicked out after 4XBB raise (400) with a guy who call with K6 (no suited) and he hit a set of sixes on the flop. That's one of my dozens history I have concerning this limit...

    But after I read this post I think I can do better that I did, these guys are just to loose so I have to play tight then.

    I think Jennifear really want to help us to improve our games and from what I can see, she seems to be a very talented player.

    Thank you and hoping getting some news from you.
  18. Arent most people going to go broke if they hold top 2 vs a set in a sitngo...I'm going broke everytime..and I suspect Jenn isnt going to lay down top2 in a 5 dollar sitngo especially on a unco-ordinated board.
  19. Doesn't have to be that type of set up. You could have 2 pair and know your opponent can't lay down top pair.

    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to potatoloco [Tc As]
    eric11eric: folds
    potatoloco: raises 60 to 90
    chopz28: folds
    connie102: folds
    andybatts: folds
    airsjo: calls 60
    *** FLOP *** [Ad Td Qc]
    airsjo: checks
    potatoloco: checks
    *** TURN *** [Ad Td Qc] [4c]
    airsjo: bets 120
    potatoloco: raises 2180 to 2300 and is all-in
    airsjo: calls 980 and is all-in
    *** RIVER *** [Ad Td Qc 4c] [Kc]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    airsjo: shows [Ah 3h] (a pair of Aces)
    potatoloco: shows [Tc As] (two pair, Aces and Tens)
    potatoloco collected 2395 from pot
  20. Low limit donks CAN lay down top pair, I see it all the time.

    In this particular case he didnt have top pair and is likely to have have folded to any bet, even after the flop, so any argument that she lost and opportunity is plain stupid.

    ABC3 calls from the button, which is standard, and bets out on the flop and there is no reason to be sure he wont fire again. If he does and the one of the other guys call, longshot is in the best possible position for a reraise. But he just checks.

    The river card is fortuitous (this IS poker) but what plays beforehand would have a higher EV? A min bet on the flop might have gotten a call from any pair, but it may have simply folded around as well. And without hitting anything would you expect him to call anything on the turn or river? Any substantial bet would get a fold all round.
  21. Of course AJ would have prompted a different post, I am sure.
  22. i agree with AJK. i don't think anyone would hesitate to call with A6 there. it looks like an overbet and you've got two pair...
  23. It would've just been an "oh well" post. Can't expect to hit a hand and have it hold every single time over the course of 1-3k hands a day. This was simply another example of exploiting someone over playing top pair.

    Can't find the hand history, but just last night I remember shoving 1800 with KK on a flop of T 7 3 after someone led out with the dreaded min bet into a 250-300 pot Got J7o to call and a 7 spikes the river. Ah well poo happens.

    This play is not convential by any means and may be viewed as crazy, dumb, stupid, however someone chooses to describe it. But in lower limit sngs, I found as primal and odd the play seems, it's a highly valuable play against players who are on level 1 thinking.
  24. I really am not trying to be rude although sure to be flamed but does low limit play really need this kind of in depth analysis? I mean it seems pretty obvious that in poker you should play ABC as long as your competition will let you get away with it and obv at higher levels you need to vary your play.

    I mean if you are even semi-serious about poker and cannot beat $5 sngs then maybe poker isnt for you? Seems like beating a dead horse or however that expression goes.
  25. ABC poker will work...hell, just about anything will work at the $5 level, it's a question of what will work best. Beating the game is fine, but who wouldn't want to beat it at a higher rate?
    I'm really looking forward to more of this kind of lesson.
  26. oh
  27. The point is low level games are different to high level games. You cannot approach them the same way and this post illustrates that point.

    Besides, most analysis is irrelevant for anyone who is wanting to build a bankroll from scratch. They arent playing at the high levels so why learn high level poker?
  28. The speed of the blinds doesn't matter as much as the deepness of the stacks, so it does apply to turbos also!
    Thread Starter
  29. I'd probably get a read, and lay it only against a set or better :) hehe
    Thread Starter
  30. This is my point!

    If they can't lay it down, and you are best, bet it all!
    Thread Starter

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