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AK deep in 3r. Curious about opinions on each street

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  1. Bigredscot Bigredscot is offline

    Prince George
    Canada

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    Joined: Jul 06

    Jan 25th, 2012 (1/25/2012 4:24pm)

    This hand is from last week deep in the 3 rebuy 40k on stars. I think 22 people left and I'm top 5. I'm not sure if I should omit names or not but mathawker is p5er too and very good player as i found out not just from stats but from playin against him. Made every hand I played against him hell, so good job mathawker. He is raising alot of hands and building a decent stack after being short. So, I thought I have to 3b him here in position and he flats. I've been 3 betting every couple rounds I'd say so his range might not be all that narrow when he flats oop. Then he donks 50k into around 300k on the flop. Raise, fold, call?

    pokerstars Hand #74040167330: Tournament #556010512, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXVII (12500/25000) - 2012/01/17 19:11:55 PT [2012/01/17 22:11:55 ET]
    Table '556010512 118' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
    Seat 1: p0ww (606487 in chips)
    Seat 3: brukacka (1055912 in chips)
    Seat 4: mathawker (941147 in chips)
    Seat 6: Johnyk311 (1120056 in chips)
    Seat 7: Bigredscot (1801969 in chips)
    Seat 8: marcin.holek (1180152 in chips)
    Seat 9: spale999 (1050095 in chips)
    p0ww: posts the ante 2500
    brukacka: posts the ante 2500
    mathawker: posts the ante 2500
    Johnyk311: posts the ante 2500
    Bigredscot: posts the ante 2500
    marcin.holek: posts the ante 2500
    spale999: posts the ante 2500
    marcin.holek: posts small blind 12500
    spale999: posts big blind 25000
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Bigredscot [Kh As]
    p0ww: folds
    Chong70599 is connected
    brukacka: folds
    mathawker: raises 25000 to 50000
    Johnyk311: folds
    Bigredscot: raises 87250 to 137250
    marcin.holek: folds
    spale999: folds
    mathawker: calls 87250
    *** FLOP *** [8s 8d 6s]
    mathawker: bets 50000
    Bigredscot
  2. TheVillageGrinder TheVillageGrinder is offline

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    Jan 25th, 2012 (1/25/2012 5:09pm) in reply to Bigredscot

    I mean ur probably ahead here but if you rr him here and he jams then ur in a really crappy spot. I suppose he could be on a draw or some combo draw and is just leading out to try and avoid having to call a large bet or jam all in.

    The problem with playing back at him is that I doubt he's folding any kind of draw. With over 320k in the pot now your raise would need to be somewhere around 200-250k and this would set it up perfectly for him to jam ai right over the top of you leaving you in shitty spot.

    So I probably just peel and reevaluate the turn and take advantage of the position you have here. I mean there are quite a few good cards that can come for you.

    I'd be interested to hear other thoughts. I'm not used to playing so deep at the end of mtts anymore. Kinda jealous.
    Edited By: TheVillageGrinder Jan 25th, 2012 at 05:11 PM
  3. tyson219 tyson219 is offline Moderator

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    Jan 25th, 2012 (1/25/2012 6:17pm) in reply to TheVillageGrinder

    I agree with VillageGrinder. I peel the flop and probably the turn as well and reevaluate on the river. He can be leading some draws like 57 and 79. He could have a small/mid pair. He could also have spades, but you at least have a good blocker there. IMO, only a small % of the time does he show up with 8x, although you can't entirely rule it out.

    With the right history we can raise/call the flop, but that has to be against a special type of villain against whom you have excellent reads/history. So peeling seems much better than r/f or r/c to me.
     969 
  4. Bigredscot Bigredscot is offline

    Prince George
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    Jan 25th, 2012 (1/25/2012 10:13pm) in reply to tyson219

    Ya, I see what you guys are saying. A call probably is best because we dont really wanna bloat the pot any more than it already is imo. I ended up raising and I dont know why because I dont know if I had a plan if he 3 bets. But he only called and then checked the turn to me which I check back after much consideration which I think was right after flop because he must have something. And then the river,

    *** FLOP *** [8s 8d 6s]
    mathawker: bets 50000
    Bigredscot: raises 125000 to 175000
    mathawker: calls 125000
    *** TURN *** [8s 8d 6s] [2d]
    mathawker: checks
    Bigredscot: checks
    *** RIVER *** [8s 8d 6s 2d] [Ah]
    mathawker: bets 325000
    Bigredscot:???

    Can anyone fold this? Does he call flop raise with worse Ace?
    Thread Starter
  5. tyson219 tyson219 is offline Moderator

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    Jan 25th, 2012 (1/25/2012 10:18pm) in reply to Bigredscot

    Never folding the river. You only lose to 8x and 66. There aren't that many 8x combos that he hoods with pre OOP. He has missed straight and flush draws that he can bluff. He could even hood and bet worse aces (AJs, AQ) on the river, even though that is a much smaller part of his range. Snap calling and unlucky if you're beat.
     969 
  6. Bigredscot Bigredscot is offline

    Prince George
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    Jan 25th, 2012 (1/25/2012 10:37pm) in reply to tyson219

    So not raising him for his last 300+? I did snap it off btw
    Thread Starter
  7. tyson219 tyson219 is offline Moderator

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    Jan 25th, 2012 (1/25/2012 11:31pm) in reply to Bigredscot

     
    Originally Posted by Bigredscot View Post

    So not raising him for his last 300+? I did snap it off btw

    idk. I'm probably a nit and just call. I don't see him calling with too many hands we beat. I may be wrong, but I think there are more combinations he calls with that are ahead of us v. those we beat. I think we dominate his betting range, but I'm not so sure we dominate his bet/call range.
     969 
  8. TheVillageGrinder TheVillageGrinder is offline

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    Jan 26th, 2012 (1/26/2012 4:45am) in reply to tyson219

    yeah i mean we're calling the river for sure. Hard to know what we're getting value from by jamming.

    Like his range is filled with so many bluffs and the A is the perfect card to barrel at cause ur repping like 99-KK and draws pretty hard. Betting also takes away ur ability to use the A as a bluff card which he might be afraid of if he has some middle pair.

    idk with history with this person i could see the rational for rejamming cause the could think ur leveling him. But vs an unknown opponent I just don't see him snapping off iwth much worse and I'm not putting a lot of Ax in his range now.
  9. Bigredscot Bigredscot is offline

    Prince George
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    Jan 26th, 2012 (1/26/2012 4:57pm) in reply to TheVillageGrinder

    Well basically i went wrong by raising the flop which gained me a free river card to pay off his quads. So sick when you play 8 hours for $123. Think I'm just gonna stick with sng's
    Thread Starter
  10. agilles agilles is offline

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    Jan 26th, 2012 (1/26/2012 5:10pm) in reply to Bigredscot

    Yeah, def not raising flop and then checking turn, what exactly are you repping?

    As played I 3b pre, and with history am more than willing to call a jam pre. Then I call flop, check turn and call river. Not an easy spot, but you got coolered to a degree, so w/e.
  11. Boandaro Boandaro is offline

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    Jan 26th, 2012 (1/26/2012 10:48pm) in reply to Bigredscot

     
    Originally Posted by Bigredscot View Post

    Well basically i went wrong by raising the flop which gained me a free river card to pay off his quads. So sick when you play 8 hours for $123. Think I'm just gonna stick with sng's

    LOL. If you are going to play tournaments you need to understand you will have many deep runs that end this way. Just put in enough volume and the results will be there.
     
  12. Sdanby Sdanby is offline

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    Jan 26th, 2012 (1/26/2012 10:51pm) in reply to Bigredscot

     
    Originally Posted by Bigredscot View Post

    Well basically i went wrong by raising the flop which gained me a free river card to pay off his quads. So sick when you play 8 hours for $123. Think I'm just gonna stick with sng's

    what about the 1.1m chips you were left with after the hand?
  13. Matty_B Matty_B is offline

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    Jan 27th, 2012 (1/27/2012 8:42am) in reply to Sdanby

    I mean its a pretty sick river lead from the villain, because he has to put you on some sort of big pair or Ax hand. Obv the way its gone down it is a snap call but a 'what can he be leading, that I beat' snap call and by leading I feel it narrows his range completely to nut type hands or some type of missed draw.

    However, if we think he's getting draws in on the flop as stated above then we can take that out. Add in that 99+ would also get it in, and the fact that the A would be a big part of your range after the check behind and I think we can begin to see a fold here. If I had no info on the villain and thought he was a fish I wouldn't think twice. Even knowing the villain is good I'd have a hard time folding in game but 30 seconds later I'd think, 'man I coulda foled'. Let me know if this is a results oriented post or not but I think it's true
  14. TheVillageGrinder TheVillageGrinder is offline

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    Jan 27th, 2012 (1/27/2012 3:18pm) in reply to Matty_B

     
    Originally Posted by Matty_B View Post

    I mean its a pretty sick river lead from the villain, because he has to put you on some sort of big pair or Ax hand. Obv the way its gone down it is a snap call but a 'what can he be leading, that I beat' snap call and by leading I feel it narrows his range completely to nut type hands or some type of missed draw.

    However, if we think he's getting draws in on the flop as stated above then we can take that out. Add in that 99+ would also get it in, and the fact that the A would be a big part of your range after the check behind and I think we can begin to see a fold here. If I had no info on the villain and thought he was a fish I wouldn't think twice. Even knowing the villain is good I'd have a hard time folding in game but 30 seconds later I'd think, 'man I coulda foled'. Let me know if this is a results oriented post or not but I think it's true

    C'mon bro so ur putting him exactly on quads or just 8x? Ur whole line seems a bit nonsensical. Leveling yourself into making big folds in a $3mtt is a massive leak.

    Considering that the rr on the flop was kinda on the small side and the fact that the turn bricked and it went check/check, its hard to narrow his range all that much. And yeah while I said its likely draws repop on the flop that isn't how everyone plays it in this spot. So while we can perhaps put less combinations of spade hands in his range they can't be removed.

    We can certainly put pairs in his range like 99-JJ, maybe even couple combos of QQ.

    Ppl flat a lot of bad hands preflopthese days and some times they will even float over cards on flop to that small of a rr, and the draws as we mentioned. And that A is a great card to represent, either as a bluff or to protect a weaker hand that has some show down value but that doesn't wanna have to call a big bet on the river.

    Sorry but this is a call all day long and there's just no getting around it.
  15. Bigredscot Bigredscot is offline

    Prince George
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    Jan 31st, 2012 (1/31/2012 5:22pm) in reply to Sdanby

     
    Originally Posted by Sdanby View Post

    what about the 1.1m chips you were left with after the hand?

    pokerstars Hand #74040533127: Tournament #556010512, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXVIII (15000/30000) - 2012/01/17 19:25:56 PT [2012/01/17 22:25:56 ET]
    Table '556010512 118' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
    Seat 1: p0ww (484988 in chips)
    Seat 3: brukacka (652302 in chips)
    Seat 4: mathawker (1789900 in chips)
    Seat 5: Chong70599 (1939941 in chips)
    Seat 6: Johnyk311 (1550955 in chips)
    Seat 7: Bigredscot (915219 in chips)
    Seat 8: marcin.holek (1231150 in chips)
    Seat 9: spale999 (727696 in chips)
    p0ww: posts the ante 3000
    brukacka: posts the ante 3000
    mathawker: posts the ante 3000
    Chong70599: posts the ante 3000
    Johnyk311: posts the ante 3000
    Bigredscot: posts the ante 3000
    marcin.holek: posts the ante 3000
    spale999: posts the ante 3000
    Johnyk311: posts small blind 15000
    Bigredscot: posts big blind 30000
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Bigredscot [Js 9d]
    marcin.holek: folds
    spale999: raises 34525 to 64525
    p0ww: folds
    brukacka: folds
    mathawker: folds
    Chong70599: calls 64525
    Johnyk311: folds
    Bigredscot: calls 34525
    *** FLOP *** [5h Jd 7s]
    Bigredscot: checks
    spale999: checks
    Chong70599: bets 90000
    Bigredscot: raises 120000 to 210000
    spale999: folds
    Chong70599: calls 120000
    *** TURN *** [5h Jd 7s] [4s]
    Bigredscot: checks
    Chong70599: bets 240000
    Chong70599 said, "i call"
    Bigredscot: folds
    Uncalled bet (240000) returned to Chong70599
    Chong70599 collected 652575 from pot

    ================================================== ===============
    PokerStars Hand #74040932737: Tournament #556010512, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXIX (20000/40000) - 2012/01/17 19:42:05 PT [2012/01/17 22:42:05 ET]
    Table '556010512 118' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
    Seat 1: panprezes77 (2004878 in chips)
    Seat 2: A*Raiponce*P (3430775 in chips)
    Seat 3: brukacka (1975127 in chips)
    Seat 4: mathawker (1280354 in chips)
    Seat 5: Chong70599 (591041 in chips)
    Seat 6: Johnyk311 (1766755 in chips)
    Seat 7: Bigredscot (764694 in chips)
    Seat 8: marcin.holek (2619183 in chips)
    Seat 9: baaftje01 (773994 in chips)
    panprezes77: posts the ante 4000
    A*Raiponce*P: posts the ante 4000
    brukacka: posts the ante 4000
    mathawker: posts the ante 4000
    Chong70599: posts the ante 4000
    Johnyk311: posts the ante 4000
    Bigredscot: posts the ante 4000
    marcin.holek: posts the ante 4000
    baaftje01: posts the ante 4000
    Johnyk311: posts small blind 20000
    Bigredscot: posts big blind 40000
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Bigredscot [Tc As]
    marcin.holek: folds
    baaftje01: folds
    panprezes77: folds
    A*Raiponce*P: folds
    brukacka: folds
    mathawker: folds
    Chong70599: folds
    Johnyk311: raises 56800 to 96800
    Bigredscot: raises 663894 to 760694 and is all-in
    Johnyk311: calls 663894
    *** FLOP *** [4c 7h 7s]
    *** TURN *** [4c 7h 7s] [8d]
    *** RIVER *** [4c 7h 7s 8d] [Qh]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    Johnyk311: shows [Jc Jd] (two pair, Jacks and Sevens)
    Bigredscot: shows [Tc As] (a pair of Sevens)
    Johnyk311 collected 1557388 from pot
    Bigredscot finished the tournament in 17th place and received $123.65.

    Thanks for askin
    Thread Starter
  16. Steve Murkle Steve Murkle is offline

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    Jan 31st, 2012 (1/31/2012 5:31pm) in reply to Bigredscot

    In the AK hand we don't need to raise the flop. Call

    If he donks turn depending on the texture I might raise and turn my hand into a bluff or I might call/fold evaluate

    As played I would have barrelled turn when he called your flop raise to put him in tough spot PPs and f draws
    461 
  17. tyson219 tyson219 is offline Moderator

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    Jan 31st, 2012 (1/31/2012 6:18pm) in reply to Steve Murkle

    I hate the flop c/r and turn c/f in the hands you just posted. Don't c/r if you aren't prepared to barrel turn, especially when it's a blank. It's better to check/call flop and c/evaluate turn if you're not going to barrel.
     969 
  18. Bigredscot Bigredscot is offline

    Prince George
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    Jan 31st, 2012 (1/31/2012 9:26pm) in reply to tyson219

    Ya, maybe I shoulda posted that J9 hand instead... that one cost me a few chips. Should I just be folding pre there? Maybe I was feeling a little tilty after the AK hand, I dont know. Should I maybe have led the flop instead of c/r so small, or maybe made the raise a lot bigger and commit turn? What is the guy flatting the c/r with?
    Thread Starter
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