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AK vs. position raise

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  1. helion helion is offline

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    Mar 21st, 2005 (3/21/2005 7:47pm)

    I'm not sure if this is a leak in my MTT game, or if sometimes you just have to lose your chips.

    Hypothetical 300/600 blinds with ante 50 ante full table. You have 9000 chips in SB, CO has 12000.
    Folded to the CO who makes it 1650. You have AK in the SB. Is this automatic push? AK is very hard to play out of position, and you figure to to be huge favorite vs. Ax KQ, coinflip (he will probably fold 8s or worse depending on both of your images), or pick up the pot right there from a steal. I have a very hard time giving him credit for a hand when it's an obvious steal opportunity. Also, that puts almost 3K chips out there which I think I will pick up most of the time.

    Hypothetical 2 300/600 blinds with 50 ante full table. You have 9000 chips in SB. UTG stack of 2000 pushes. Button with 6000 pushes over the top. Do you call here? I'm assuming UTG has any 2 cards. Button could be trying to isolate with AQ AJ and possibly A10 (not likely) Or a pocket pair. You're getting almost 1.7-1, but risking 2/3 of your stack. I could see folding this because I'd much rather be the agressor with AK. I would probably call here depending on the buttons table image, because I'm prohibited from making raises with such a medium stack/short stack, but if I could get over 17K it would allow me to play more pots and further increase my stack.
  2. Adam Adam is offline Emperor

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    Mar 21st, 2005 (3/21/2005 8:07pm) in reply to helion

    I agree with your assessment of both situations. I almost always push in the first situation and pretty much always fold the second. 9k is at least a decent stack, esp when you're about to be on the button there. No reason to call most of it off in a 3 way pot. In the first situation, I can't see how it wouldn't be a + EV play to push, unless your opponent is an absolute rock.
     
  3. RogerG RogerG is offline

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    Mar 21st, 2005 (3/21/2005 11:26pm) in reply to helion

    I agree that the first situation is automatic. AK is much easier to play in position and a lot of times you will get a call and have him in bad shape. The second scenario is by and far the more intresting scenario for debate. It is completly subjective. Taken everything into account, I think (pending the buttons image) I am going to fold 70% of the time and call it 30 percent. If I am running good or feel it is a good opportunity to grab chips so I can open up then I call. Most of the time I raise all in on the button with a 2k UTG all in with a 6k stack I have a decent pair 99+ or AK ... If I really thought the UTG had garbage I might do it with AQ.. but never worse .. I think that situation depends intierley on the circumstance, your knowledge of the players and how you feel you are running.
  4. supermoves supermoves is offline invented poker

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    Mar 22nd, 2005 (3/22/2005 8:53am) in reply to helion

    Hey helion, while in a cash game, I agree with everyone here, in a tourney, I dont push with AK from the SB...he makes it 1650....he is representing a good hand. BUT, there are a TON of hands he would make this raise with, pretty much ANY pair above 5's, AQ, ATs, maybe even AJ because he has position. SO, I like to call here and see if the flop helps. Ace king is GREAT, but I think too many players risk their tourneys on it. If you raise, the only way you get called is by a hand that beats you, so why not take the flop cheaply? Pushing is just silly (IMO), if you raise to something reasonable, say 4k total...he is going to fold AQ, AJ, etc. So the only way you get a call with your raise is if he is already ahead (pocket pair or AK). So basically if yo raise him here, you are putting him on a bluff or hoping he folds the best hand. I say call the 1650...see the flop, if it hits you, great, take it down....if it misses you, check fold and you get away pretty cheaply. If you have a straight/flush draw, bet out and see what he does. Just my advice. You gain nothing by raising...if he folds, you only win 1650, if he calls, youre probably dead (or at least behind)
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  5. Adam Adam is offline Emperor

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    Mar 22nd, 2005 (3/22/2005 9:02am) in reply to supermoves

    The money already in the pot is significant--it's around 1/4 of his stack. If he calls, 64% of the time he will have to fold on the flop. That means 64% of the time he's going to be calling around 1/6 of his stack off preflop and then folding. That's unacceptable. If he pushes in, there is a strong possibility of his opponent folding. If his opponent doesn't fold, he is more than likely in at least a "coin flip" situation, if not better. Unless your opponent has AA or KK, which is always particularly unlikely when you hold AK, being that the deck is crippled, you are making a play that ahs positive value in the long run.
     
  6. supermoves supermoves is offline invented poker

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    Mar 22nd, 2005 (3/22/2005 10:45am) in reply to Adam

    First, Im sure you are a better player than me, so this is more of an "explain why Im wrong" than anything else. But it seems to me that its better to lose 1/6 or 1/4th of his stack, than the whole thing. IMO, there is NOTHING good that can come of raising here. Better to call, see a flop and then fold if you have to and lose 1/6th of your chips, than to push in to win 1/6 and get called by a hand that dominates you. This is what I was taught: its ok to push when youre WORST case is a coinflip, its bad to push when your BEST case is a coin flip.
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  7. Adam Adam is offline Emperor

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    Mar 22nd, 2005 (3/22/2005 11:27am) in reply to supermoves

    I agree with your last statement...that's why i advocate pushing. I tend to think of AK as "at worst a coinflip," unless the action has convinced me that someone has AA or KK, which it hadn't here. I'm willing to take the chance that someone has AA or KK in this situation, because I consider it very unlikely. If he holds anything else, you are either a coin flip or better, and you have a good chance of seeing your opponent fold (unless, like I said, he's an absolute rock). I think this is one of those times where you need to move your chips to give yourself a chance to chip up and win the tournament.
     
  8. supermoves supermoves is offline invented poker

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    Mar 22nd, 2005 (3/22/2005 11:56am) in reply to Adam

    I still advicate more caution here, so we will have to agree to disagree...but maybe thats why you run a poker website and I cant seem to cash....haha!
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  9. Adam Adam is offline Emperor

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    Mar 22nd, 2005 (3/22/2005 2:25pm) in reply to supermoves

    Ahhh no not trying to self-promote :) just disagreeing.
     
  10. RogerG RogerG is offline

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    Mar 22nd, 2005 (3/22/2005 6:06pm) in reply to Adam

    Supermoves, you are forgetting to take into account the difficulty of playing AK out of position. Any good tournament player will take the opportunity to steal the blinds every single time he feels he can get away with it. It adds to his stack (or counters the loss of blinds he just took) and it is inevitable setting the table and the blinds you are raising up for when you catch a big hand. I would recommend stealing a little more, to keep up with the average, idealy ahead of it, but you don't need to panic and do it at inopportune times. This will only lose you chips. I would also reccomend, getting a feel for the players that are on the button and behind it, when you are the blinds. A little more risky move, but one that will earn you more chips, is to push in over top of people you think are stealing. In the instance we are talking about, helion uses AK for our hand. But If a player behind me has a healthy stack and I feel they are prone to stealing. I will play back at them when I am fairly sure they are on a steal. I am right 9-10 times .. and the times I am wrong, they dont want to risk all of their chips and fold anyway. I rarley ever get called on this play, but you definatley have to pick your opponents in this sittuation....

    -Roger G.
  11. dave118 dave118 is offline

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    Mar 24th, 2005 (3/24/2005 3:37pm) in reply to helion

    Totally agree with Adam on this one. The power of AK is that you are so rarely in really bad shape that you can push in this type situation. Very difficult for opponent to call. You may even get him to fold 9's 10's even jacks depending on how things have been going for him or how he views his chances. And as for calling and then pushing with straight draws, remember any straight draw almost certainly paired or even "setted" your opponent if he didnt have a pair already. Don't like a call here.
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