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AKo in the SB vs EP raise

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  1. shady1128 shady1128 is offline

    Buffalo, NY
    United States

    Posts: 602
    Joined: Aug 07

    Aug 27th, 2009 (8/27/2009 5:46pm)

     3.30 90 man on FT, 19 remain, 9 get paid
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    I play these quite a bit and want to hit the FT w/ at least 30K. Blinds are 300/600 w/ 50 ante. My stack is ~22,000. 

    I pick up AKo in the SB. UTG+1 w/ ~23,000 raises to 1550, folds to my SB. 

    Here a few questions arise. 1.) Do you re-pop here? Conventional wisdom suggests you want to end the hand before the flop since I'm OOP, but do I really want to call a 4bet shove for my stack? With the stack sizes it's unlikely UTG+1 is re-shoving AQ and below. Best case scenario would be 99-QQ deciding to re-shove and I'm in a race. There are so many other spots to make money stealing pots in the late stages here that my seat and stack are almost worth more then my hand. 2.) Can you fold?

    I make possibly the worst choice and flat call. We see a pot of ~3,400. 

    Flop: 10c 6h 4s

    I check, UTG+1 bets 3000. IMO there are two lines that may work w/ the least risk. One is to fold and move on to the next hand were I'm in a better spot. Two is to check-call, lead the turn. If he doesn't have a pocket pair, or a hand w/ a 10 in it he's folding the turn and may well fold 99,88,77,55 etc. At this level if I re-pop the flop a lot of people may shove w/ overs because they don't know what else to do and I don't really want to call off my stack because I "may" be ahead. If i check-call and lead the turn at no point am I putting my entire stack on the line and if I get raised on the turn I know he's got it. If he has two overs, they're folding. 

    I call and see an 8d. 

    I lead 5,500. Leaving myself w/ 20BB and a good re-shove stack if this doesn't work. Which it doesn't. My opponent raises all in, I fold and he shows JJ. 

    Comments on the play? Be brutal, I love your sarcasm anyway. 

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  2. shady1128 shady1128 is offline

    Buffalo, NY
    United States

    Posts: 602
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    Aug 28th, 2009 (8/28/2009 3:00pm) in reply to shady1128

    bump
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  3. MastaP89 MastaP89 is offline

    Austria

    Posts: 1,808
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    Aug 28th, 2009 (8/28/2009 9:28pm) in reply to shady1128

    didnt read much of what you wrote

    just 3bet pre get it in
    1 
  4. Dr.Guillotine Dr.Guillotine is offline

    Detroit, MI
    United States

    Posts: 212
    Joined: Jul 09

    Aug 28th, 2009 (8/28/2009 11:21pm) in reply to shady1128

    The three bet pre seems like a better line and calling any 4-bet shove and 5-bet shoving any non all-in 4 bet. Against most of the villains range you're doing pretty good. Ignoring what the villain turned up with your line seems dangerously lost.

     
    Originally Posted by shady1128 View Post

    With the stack sizes it's unlikely UTG+1 is re-shoving AQ and below. Best case scenario would be 99-QQ deciding to re-shove and I'm in a race.

    By not reraising preflop your opponents hand value has gone understated. If you think villain doesn't raise UTG+1 with anything besides AKs/99+ then your line is fine.

    If you do think he will raise but not call any shove or reraise with lesser hands than these then your line is incorrect.

    When you go to the flop, the villain has the initiative and can represent a far wider range of hands since you just called. He has an M of 23 and ~38BBs. Sure raise folding that stack isn't the best way to be playing it, but if the villain was on a front position steal then he would allow a similar line to happen as a bluff.
  5. shady1128 shady1128 is offline

    Buffalo, NY
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    Aug 29th, 2009 (8/29/2009 12:30am) in reply to Dr.Guillotine

     So basically what you're saying is that by re-raising I'll have a better idea of what my opponents range is if he four bets. But should I be calling an all-in four bet here? I feel like most of the time I'm going to be way behind in this spot if I do call and re-raising then essentially turns my AK into a bluff because it's unlikely he's going to just flat, he'll usually either push or fold. 

    That being said people do some pretty crazy shit w/ some pretty random hands in the 3.30s even late in the tournaments. There's a chance he'll call an all-in 3bet and roll over Q10 or KJ here because that's just what they do, but I've found it's much better to assign them normal ranges unless they've shown a very large propensity for spewing senselessly. 
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  6. shady1128 shady1128 is offline

    Buffalo, NY
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    Aug 29th, 2009 (8/29/2009 12:38am) in reply to MastaP89

     
    Originally Posted by MastaP89 View Post

     didnt read much of what you wrote

    just 3bet pre get it in

    3bet all-in 22,000 into a 2600 pot? That doesnt seem correct. Seems like too much of a situation where I only get called by hands beating me or in a race. Late in these tournies there's so much value from raping the average and even small stacks that it doesn't seem worth it to risk so much in such a weird spot. Thoughts?
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  7. Dr.Guillotine Dr.Guillotine is offline

    Detroit, MI
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    Aug 29th, 2009 (8/29/2009 2:03am) in reply to shady1128

    my point is if that's how you understand the way his range works and will work, where that raise always commits him, then your hand just seems like its played wrong.

    If you can accurately assign him to always be on PP's raising from that spot then it's a better situation to call and fold the flop when you don't hit.

    By check calling and leading any turn card, few make the hand worse, you turn AK into a bluff that way. You essentially bet yourself out the pot on the turn because if villain doesn't always the goods there you miss value.

    Second if the villain does have a pocket pair like 99-AA every time your really doing yourself a disservice since your flipping with 99-QQ.

    Even if 3-betting doesn't always seem right you have the ability to shove any flop unless he shoves pre and you'll have the odds with AK against this specific range 99-AA. You're slightly behind, 60/40 basically, but the times when you do win the flip allow you to abuse the table better and takes hits better.

    You'll be given slightly better than 60/40 odds for your 3-bet unless you think you never have flop equity here. Also if the villain flats you can dump most flops with an expectation that he'll call off with a worse hand, you'll draw out, or he'll outright fold.
  8. shady1128 shady1128 is offline

    Buffalo, NY
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    Aug 29th, 2009 (8/29/2009 12:09pm) in reply to Dr.Guillotine

    Thank you for your responses Dr. You've given me a lot to think about.
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