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This hand is from the 100r on PS tonight. Crisper had limped twice before but hands never went to showdown. What's sick here is instead of jamming, I decide to open raise, leaving myself with 8k behind at 1k bb... pukenation.... thoughts?
Seat 1: agriffrod (10965 in chips)
Seat 2: BredaBreda (68581 in chips)
Seat 3: sheets (36474 in chips)
Seat 4: Norm427 (20392 in chips)
Seat 5: TIJO (14991 in chips)
Seat 7: BruceWizayne (31612 in chips)
Seat 8: Crisper (18450 in chips)
Seat 9: Rex5578 (12835 in chips)
agriffrod: posts the ante 100
BredaBreda: posts the ante 100
sheets: posts the ante 100
Norm427: posts the ante 100
TIJO: posts the ante 100
BruceWizayne: posts the ante 100
Crisper: posts the ante 100
Rex5578: posts the ante 100
Norm427: posts small blind 500
TIJO: posts big blind 1000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Rex5578 [Qh Qc]
BruceWizayne: folds
Crisper: calls 1000
Rex5578: raises 3335 to 4335
agriffrod: folds
BredaBreda: raises 6664 to 10999
sheets has timed out while disconnected
sheets: folds
sheets is sitting out
Norm427: folds
TIJO: folds
Crisper: raises 7351 to 18350 and is all-in
bluffdeez503 is connected
sheets is connected
sheets has returned
Rex5578:??????????? -
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Posts: 321
Joined: Feb 05Aug 19th, 2009 (8/19/2009 12:17am) in reply to Rex55
Probably not, but possible...consider the big stack raises with a PP to bully, and than other guy pushes w/ AK.
Doubtful, but impossible to fold IMO -
Posts: 157
Joined: Sep 05Aug 19th, 2009 (8/19/2009 12:21am) in reply to Adam
Isn't this a shove from the get go? Over 1/4 your stack is in the pot before you even act. I don't think folding is an option considering your stack size.
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well tbh i dont think its as cut and dry. I mean I think I look really strong by not jamming to begin with, with my stack.. now we have breda essentially min 3 betting after a limper and a raise.. and then crisper still decides to limp come over the top.....normally this would be a pretty easy fold for me....but the reason i am posting is because of the stack situation. Do I still call off even if I am sick to my stomach 99% sure crisper has AA or KK? Can I have more thoughts please?
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Posts: 321
Joined: Feb 05Aug 19th, 2009 (8/19/2009 12:36am) in reply to Rex55
I think you're 99% sure because you called and he had AA or KK...yes?
I stand by my call -
Posts: 5,588
Joined: May 05Aug 19th, 2009 (8/19/2009 1:01am) in reply to OneTime_10
Can't figure out for the life of me why you're not shoving here initially. You're just turning your hand face up in a tough tournament - can't be a good play long term. As played let out a short sigh and call.
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Posts: 2,250
Joined: Aug 07Aug 19th, 2009 (8/19/2009 1:29am) in reply to Rex55
very easy call, I think both ranges are wider than u think, and I think a shove is much better than the 3x off that stack size
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Posts: 4,719
Joined: Jan 06Aug 19th, 2009 (8/19/2009 1:48am) in reply to Rex55
why exactly do u want to look stronger w/ qq hereOriginally Posted by Rex55
well tbh i dont think its as cut and dry. I mean I think I look really strong by not jamming to begin with, with my stack.. now we have breda essentially min 3 betting after a limper and a raise.. and then crisper still decides to limp come over the top.....normally this would be a pretty easy fold for me....but the reason i am posting is because of the stack situation. Do I still call off even if I am sick to my stomach 99% sure crisper has AA or KK? Can I have more thoughts please?
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Seat 1: agriffrod (10965 in chips)
Seat 2: BredaBreda (68581 in chips)
Seat 3: sheets (36474 in chips)
Seat 4: Norm427 (20392 in chips)
Seat 5: TIJO (14991 in chips)
Seat 7: BruceWizayne (31612 in chips)
Seat 8: Crisper (18450 in chips)
Seat 9: Rex5578 (12835 in chips)
agriffrod: posts the ante 100
BredaBreda: posts the ante 100
sheets: posts the ante 100
Norm427: posts the ante 100
TIJO: posts the ante 100
BruceWizayne: posts the ante 100
Crisper: posts the ante 100
Rex5578: posts the ante 100
Norm427: posts small blind 500
TIJO: posts big blind 1000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Rex5578 [Qh Qc]
BruceWizayne: folds
Crisper: calls 1000
Rex5578: raises 3335 to 4335
agriffrod: folds
BredaBreda: raises 6664 to 10999
sheets has timed out while disconnected
sheets: folds
sheets is sitting out
Norm427: folds
TIJO: folds
Crisper: raises 7351 to 18350 and is all-in
bluffdeez503 is connected
sheets is connected
sheets has returned
Rex5578: folds
BredaBreda: calls 7351
*** FLOP *** [9h 3d 5c]
*** TURN *** [9h 3d 5c] [Ac]
*** RIVER *** [9h 3d 5c Ac] [9d]
Rex5578 said, "so sik"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Crisper: shows [Ks Kd] (two pair, Kings and Nines)
BredaBreda: shows [Kc As] (two pair, Aces and Nines)
k so in hindsight.. I agree that I should have just jammed pre after the limper, because anything else makes my hand look hella strong, and in the long run this is optimally the best line.. since i will get called by much lighter if i just jam vs donkopenraising announcing to the table I HAVE A BIG PAIR....
but as played, I still like my fold. I would not fold QQ every time in this spot either, its just that i was sooooooooooooo sure....but I guess that 'feeling' is hard to explain?
Believe me, I am not trying to find reasons to fold QQ rofl...
Ironically, I got QQ a few hands later and jammed in 7 bb .. got called by AK and lost the race.... -
uhm???
if no one put really funky drugs in my coffee im 100%sure 1sek before i quoted your post you had JhJc lolz -
def don't want to look stronger and ultimately i now see my mistake by even open raising to begin with... but i was moreso saying that by doing this i did look so silly strong and still all this action behind me ensued etc....
Originally Posted by doubledave22
why exactly do u want to look stronger w/ qq here
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This thread getting 17 responses, some of which don't understand that shoving over the limper is the ONLY play...illustrates clearly that 85.7% of the poker playing population are just fuckin clueless
Crown Royal FTW -
Posts: 1
Joined: Aug 09Aug 19th, 2009 (8/19/2009 5:51am) in reply to anticure
Agreed. No reason to "look strong" with QQ's and a 12BB stack. After Crisper limps there is no reason to not ship it all. It allows you to:
A. win the pot without a showdown and increase your stack by roughly 25%.
B. Get called light by someone behind you, or the limper. In which case you are very likely to have the best hand.
C. Set up your image so later you can do the same thing with a strong hand and get called light by someone tired of your aggressive play.
With the action as stands, you insta call and see what happens. It's hard to know where the limper is at without prior knowledge of what he's been limping earlier on during play, or without playing with him before in past MTT's. Is he a high stakes MTT reg? What are his OPR results? If you get it in her and he ends up have AA or KK then so be it, it's a cold deck, it happens.
I also agree with the statement that both players ranges are much wider then you might think in this spot, espcially the limpers. I think his range includes hands like 10's, JJ's, AK, AQ, which we are way ahead of.
It's the $100 rebuy and people are fiesty online, get it in there and hope for the best. -
Posts: 677
Joined: Jul 09Aug 19th, 2009 (8/19/2009 5:59am) in reply to whitespur
Uh i scanned thru all the posts real quick and i dont really see any posts that say shoving isnt the best play. ppl are just responding to the hand AS PLAYED but obv shoving is the optimal play pre...Originally Posted by whitespur
This thread getting 17 responses, some of which don't understand that shoving over the limper is the ONLY play...illustrates clearly that 85.7% of the poker playing population are just fuckin clueless
Crown Royal FTW
but crown royal is cool -
Posts: 5,071
Joined: Jun 07Aug 19th, 2009 (8/19/2009 6:13am) in reply to MastaP89
You get your money in there slappy. Unfortunately you will be behind most of the time, but then you can type "fkn rigged a$$ BS site" in the chatbox, among other things when you start your tyrrade.
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Shove pre. Only play. As played, still shove. You have outs and while I never do it, I see my opponents do it to me all the time getting it in behind and binking a queen to crack my aces. Playing by feel is negative ev and the math doesn't lie. Don't become results oriented. The next time I am sure you will triple up and take down the 100r.
Originally Posted by Rex55
well tbh i dont think its as cut and dry. I mean I think I look really strong by not jamming to begin with, with my stack.. now we have breda essentially min 3 betting after a limper and a raise.. and then crisper still decides to limp come over the top.....normally this would be a pretty easy fold for me....but the reason i am posting is because of the stack situation. Do I still call off even if I am sick to my stomach 99% sure crisper has AA or KK? Can I have more thoughts please?
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Posts: 816
Joined: Jul 08Aug 19th, 2009 (8/19/2009 12:46pm) in reply to anticure
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I dont understand why you want to look strong with a good hand deep in this mtt. And with 8bb left with 40k in the pot.... youd be a fool not to call just because of the odds. Win and you have serious potential of running deep in this. Lose and close the table and yell at yourself. Play to win... when you have 8bb left.... Your just delaying the inevitable. -
Posts: 866
Joined: Nov 06Aug 19th, 2009 (8/19/2009 7:20pm) in reply to Rex55
You have to understand you are being results orientated here. You said that you realize you made a mistake by not just jamming preflop, but you must also realize you made an even bigger mistake by raise/folding your 12.8 bb stacksize with QQ when the pot was giving you just under 5 to 1 odds. If you had jammed pre and ran into KK, would you have told yourself you should have raised/folded like you did in this situation???? Even if the pot was offering you much less than 5 to 1 here, you still can not EVER raise/fold that stacksize, especially when there was a limper in front which forced you to make a slightly larger than normal opening raise to 4.3x, rather the more standard 2.2x-2.7x at this stage of the tournament.Originally Posted by Rex55
Seat 1: agriffrod (10965 in chips)
Seat 2: BredaBreda (68581 in chips)
Seat 3: sheets (36474 in chips)
Seat 4: Norm427 (20392 in chips)
Seat 5: TIJO (14991 in chips)
Seat 7: BruceWizayne (31612 in chips)
Seat 8: Crisper (18450 in chips)
Seat 9: Rex5578 (12835 in chips)
agriffrod: posts the ante 100
BredaBreda: posts the ante 100
sheets: posts the ante 100
Norm427: posts the ante 100
TIJO: posts the ante 100
BruceWizayne: posts the ante 100
Crisper: posts the ante 100
Rex5578: posts the ante 100
Norm427: posts small blind 500
TIJO: posts big blind 1000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Rex5578 [Qh Qc]
BruceWizayne: folds
Crisper: calls 1000
Rex5578: raises 3335 to 4335
agriffrod: folds
BredaBreda: raises 6664 to 10999
sheets has timed out while disconnected
sheets: folds
sheets is sitting out
Norm427: folds
TIJO: folds
Crisper: raises 7351 to 18350 and is all-in
bluffdeez503 is connected
sheets is connected
sheets has returned
Rex5578: folds
BredaBreda: calls 7351
*** FLOP *** [9h 3d 5c]
*** TURN *** [9h 3d 5c] [Ac]
*** RIVER *** [9h 3d 5c Ac] [9d]
Rex5578 said, "so sik"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Crisper: shows [Ks Kd] (two pair, Kings and Nines)
BredaBreda: shows [Kc As] (two pair, Aces and Nines)
k so in hindsight.. I agree that I should have just jammed pre after the limper, because anything else makes my hand look hella strong, and in the long run this is optimally the best line.. since i will get called by much lighter if i just jam vs donkopenraising announcing to the table I HAVE A BIG PAIR....
but as played, I still like my fold. I would not fold QQ every time in this spot either, its just that i was sooooooooooooo sure....but I guess that 'feeling' is hard to explain?
Believe me, I am not trying to find reasons to fold QQ rofl...
Ironically, I got QQ a few hands later and jammed in 7 bb .. got called by AK and lost the race....
DO NOT BE RESULTS ORIENTATED, JAM PREFLOP, UL, GOOD GAME -
Posts: 103
Joined: May 06Aug 19th, 2009 (8/19/2009 7:31pm) in reply to OneTime_10
you need 26% to call...
Hand 0: 33.102% 32.41% 00.69% 348287304 7446638.67 { QcQs }
Hand 1: 24.500% 20.27% 04.23% 217836354 45455498.67 { JJ+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 2: 42.399% 38.72% 03.68% 416125498 39519842.67 { KK+, AKs, AKo }
if crisper is only getting it in with kk+ you can fold
Hand 0: 15.279% 15.03% 00.25% 69241014 1131648.00 { QcQs }
Hand 1: 22.644% 20.96% 01.68% 96543120 7749894.00 { JJ+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 2: 62.076% 60.50% 01.58% 278631768 7275900.00 { KK+ }
but anyone who limps kk/aa in that spot is probably doing the same thing with ak so i'm never folding.
shove pre tho -
Posts: 866
Joined: Nov 06Aug 19th, 2009 (8/19/2009 7:42pm) in reply to bfineman
Going out on a limb, lets just say he was getting less than 26% based on our reads b/c we are almost sure he is on KK+. Is it really still optimal to raise/fold that stacksize when the pot is giving you 5 to 1 this late in the tournament?Originally Posted by bfineman
you need 26% to call...
Hand 0: 33.102% 32.41% 00.69% 348287304 7446638.67 { QcQs }
Hand 1: 24.500% 20.27% 04.23% 217836354 45455498.67 { JJ+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 2: 42.399% 38.72% 03.68% 416125498 39519842.67 { KK+, AKs, AKo }
if crisper is only getting it in with kk+ you can fold
Hand 0: 15.279% 15.03% 00.25% 69241014 1131648.00 { QcQs }
Hand 1: 22.644% 20.96% 01.68% 96543120 7749894.00 { JJ+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 2: 62.076% 60.50% 01.58% 278631768 7275900.00 { KK+ }
but anyone who limps kk/aa in that spot is probably doing the same thing with ak so i'm never folding.
shove pre tho
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