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Annoying turn spot ITM of FTP 5r 6max

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  1. kxywrx kxywrx is offline

    Long Beach, CA
    United States

    Posts: 355
    Joined: Aug 07

    Oct 28th, 2010 (10/28/2010 5:28am)

    I've only been at the table for about 10 hands so I don't have any reads.

    Full Tilt Poker Game #25062650741: $12,000 Guarantee (Rebuy) (193879477), Table 107 - 500/1000 Ante 125 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:51:00 ET - 2010/10/27
    Seat 1: bustincapsbuzz (45,152)
    Seat 2: Terror Lizzy (60,579)
    Seat 3: ray_yu (28,805)
    Seat 4: kxywrx (89,919)
    Seat 5: Derby Champ (28,682)
    Seat 6: mason84 (56,166)
    bustincapsbuzz antes 125
    Terror Lizzy antes 125
    ray_yu antes 125
    kxywrx antes 125
    Derby Champ antes 125
    mason84 antes 125
    bustincapsbuzz posts the small blind of 500
    Terror Lizzy posts the big blind of 1,000
    The button is in seat #6
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to kxywrx [4d 6d]
    ray_yu folds
    kxywrx raises to 2,250
    Derby Champ folds
    mason84 folds
    bustincapsbuzz folds
    Terror Lizzy has 15 seconds left to act
    Terror Lizzy calls 1,250
    *** FLOP *** [6h Ac 2s]
    Terror Lizzy checks
    kxywrx bets 2,325
    Terror Lizzy calls 2,325
    *** TURN *** [6h Ac 2s] [4h]
    Terror Lizzy checks
    kxywrx has 15 seconds left to act
    kxywrx bets 4,875
    Terror Lizzy raises to 13,000
    kxywrx has 15 seconds left to act

    OK my thoughts are this: I know I can check back the flop, which I do sometimes but I was content with winning the pot then and there. The turn is a great card for us but that turn c/r just sucks and looks ridiculously strong on that super dry board. I have more thoughts on this but want to hear what others say first, so any feedback is appreciated ! :)

    Edit: Basically, what are you guys doing on turn as played and how do you plan on continuing, etc
    Edited By: kxywrx Oct 28th, 2010 at 05:30 AM
     
  2. dalix88 dalix88 is offline

    Leeds
    United Kingdom

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    Oct 28th, 2010 (10/28/2010 5:41am) in reply to kxywrx

    I would fold to the turn check-raise, as there doesn't seem to be any hands that we can beat, apart from maybe a spewy played top pair or a bluff. I don't really like calling or raising in this spot.
    Edited By: dalix88 Oct 28th, 2010 at 05:43 AM
    935 
  3. OneTimeJake OneTimeJake is offline

    Huntington Beach, CA
    United States

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    Oct 28th, 2010 (10/28/2010 6:02am) in reply to dalix88

     
    Originally Posted by dalix88 View Post

    I would fold to the turn check-raise, as there doesn't seem to be any hands that we can beat, apart from maybe a spewy played top pair or a bluff. I don't really like calling or raising in this spot.

    Seems like a spewy top pair with a possible FD to me, I'm prob flatting and reevaluating the river since he's always calling a raise here anyway.
  4. rainmanrcp rainmanrcp is offline

    Wilmington, NC
    United States

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    Oct 28th, 2010 (10/28/2010 6:11am) in reply to OneTimeJake

    I'm jamming here fwiw so much to be won already and puts us in a less awkward spot on the river if a scary card peels. I mean honestly how many hands are we likely behind?
    Edited By: rainmanrcp Oct 28th, 2010 at 06:12 AM
  5. Gettin Daize Gettin Daize is offline

    Costa Rica

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    Oct 28th, 2010 (10/28/2010 6:39am) in reply to rainmanrcp

    its really player dependant its def. never a shove tho im prol calling and reevaluating river vs someone in this tourney just because i could see alot of players playin top pair like this in this. river is prol gonna be a fold to a big bet and call blockingish type of bets
    2 211 
  6. FenwayKing FenwayKing is offline The Well: FenwayKing

    Posts: 12,062
    Joined: Mar 06

    Oct 28th, 2010 (10/28/2010 6:52am) in reply to rainmanrcp

     
    Originally Posted by rainmanrcp View Post

    I'm jamming here fwiw so much to be won already and puts us in a less awkward spot on the river if a scary card peels. I mean honestly how many hands are we likely behind?

    A6, A2, 222, 66 or 44 (pretty unlikely because there's only one combo of each of these), or the most likely holding a turned A4 (imo, given combinatorics and the action, A4 is the most likely holding but all the other hands I listed are possible as well)

    anyway,

     
    Originally Posted by Gettin Daize View Post

    its really player dependant its def. never a shove tho im prol calling and reevaluating river vs someone in this tourney just because i could see alot of players playin top pair like this in this. river is prol gonna be a fold to a big bet and call blockingish type of bets

    Daize, don't you think if he's going to c/r top pair, he's more apt to c/r it on the flop than on the turn? I mean it's the 5r 6m so the dolt factor is off the charts, but I still feel like if he's the kind of bad player who was gonna c/r top pair it's more likely he'd do it on the flop than the turn. I feel like his range on turn is mostly what I listed above with some Axhh combos that he'd play this way. I guess there's also bluffs in there but I really don't think a lot of people bluff c/r turn that much (or even as much as they should given how strongly their ranges ends up getting weighted towards value).

    If the river's a heart, what would you do to a blocking-type bet?

    thanks, would love to hear your thoughts
    Edited By: FenwayKing Oct 28th, 2010 at 06:58 AM
    247 1
  7. Gettin Daize Gettin Daize is offline

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    Oct 28th, 2010 (10/28/2010 7:56am) in reply to FenwayKing

    nah i def agree with u jus sayin its more possible in this than most tourneys...but yea i dont see how folding turn can be that bad
    2 211 
  8. jmeow jmeow is offline

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    Joined: May 10

    Oct 28th, 2010 (10/28/2010 8:53am) in reply to Gettin Daize

    Thinking about villain's read on OP, given he/she is probably largely in a vacuum too, OP's line looks a lot like at least Ax given your PFR and 2-barrel (on what was a dry flop), so unless villain thinks that a large part of your range is a bluff then villain's value range for c/r the turn probably has you crushed. (Then there is the tooling out factor though...). So, unless villain thinks you're bluffing and is re-bluffing, or somehow knows that you're capable of folding the weaker portion of your value range, then I'd have to assume the c/r is rarely a bluff in this spot.

    I'd be hitting time & doing a quick search on OPR which might reveal some info about the standard of villain's play in general...

    The toughest part of this hand for me is that as Daize says this is the 5r and that makes it really hard for me to find a fold on this turn because in this MTT without reads I think A3, A5, A7+ makes up a significant portion of villiain's range esp. for defending the blind. We have eliminators to a bunch of sets. For that reason I think my most likely line as played is to flat & re-eval the river, probably calling it off depending on the action/what comes down/timing tells etc (river 6 one time pls).

    FWIW I might just chk it back on the turn if I intend to fold to a reraise here because we have so much sd value and our hand can't really withstand a c/r comfortably without a read to the contrary and we can rep a failed c-bet and possibly get 2 streets of value from worse. However, betting seems fine too if you've got a plan for what to do if villain c/r you. Shoving doesn't seem like an option to me unless you're turning it into a bluff which I don't like readless.

    Fenway, I guess one possible explanation for a turn c/r would be that someone who treats TP as the nuts is probably also scared of the flushdraw coming down on the turn; another might be that villain flatted pre- with a strong ace and considers it likely to be either ace vs ace with him holding the superior kicker or alternatively him thinking that he is letting OP 2-barrel with air and now wants to TID as the board is getting wetter; but I agree with your analysis in general, so if villain's thinking v. much at all it's a lot easier to fold here (the only caveat being that there is potential for what I think you called the dolt factor).

    Interesting hand & discussion from much better players than me, thanks.
  9. kxywrx kxywrx is offline

    Long Beach, CA
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    Oct 28th, 2010 (10/28/2010 6:43pm) in reply to jmeow

    I agree that raising here is out of the question because against someone's c/c flop and c/r/c turn range in this particular spot we're crushed. I appreciate all the great posts/thoughts so far and welcome any and all other opinions on the hand. If there's more interest I'll eventually post results when I get back
     
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