Check out our brand new Local Poker Communities! Get updates and interact with poker players in your area.
Visit the United States Poker Community | Visit the California Poker Community | Read more about the Launch of P5s Local

Another JJ thread

Reply to Thread
  1. 2JL 2JL is offline

    United Kingdom

    Posts: 90
    Joined: Sep 11

    Oct 22nd, 2011 (10/22/2011 9:12pm)

    OK.. FT of a $22 game...
    Do you think I (Jellylumps2) should have folded after Jota shoved over my 3bet?

    Seat 3 is the button
    Total number of players : 6/10
    Seat 1: FabMab ( 110,233 )
    Seat 3: Jellylumps2 ( 142,252 )
    Seat 10: JotaSpewnie ( 202,467 )
    Seat 9: NoOnionsBlud ( 117,292 )
    Seat 2: sigblick111 ( 82,456 )
    Seat 6: xxx86zzz ( 68,300 )
    Trny:64281705 Level:21
    Blinds-Antes(2,500/5,000 -500)
    FabMab posts ante [500]
    sigblick111 posts ante [500]
    Jellylumps2 posts ante [500]
    xxx86zzz posts ante [500]
    NoOnionsBlud posts ante [500]
    JotaSpewnie posts ante [500]
    ** Dealing down cards **
    Dealt to Jellylumps2 [ Jd Js ]
    JotaSpewnie raises [10,000]
    FabMab folds
    sigblick111 folds
    Jellylumps2 raises [25,000]
    xxx86zzz folds
    NoOnionsBlud folds
    JotaSpewnie is all-In [191,967]
    Jellylumps2 is all-In [116,752]
    ** Dealing Flop ** [ 4d, 5d, 4s ]
    ** Dealing Turn ** [ 3s ]
    ** Dealing River ** [ 7c ]
    Jellylumps2 shows [ Jd, Js ]two pairs, Jacks and Fours.
    JotaSpewnie shows [ Kc, Kh ]two pairs, Kings and Fours.
    JotaSpewnie wins 60,215 chips from the side pot 1 with two pairs, Kings and Fours.
    JotaSpewnie wins 294,004 chips from the main pot with two pairs, Kings and Fours.

    =================

    Why has this been moved to the bad beats section?
    Edited By: 2JL Oct 22nd, 2011 at 09:43 PM
  2. Liquid_Eyes Liquid_Eyes is offline

    United Kingdom

    Posts: 67
    Joined: Sep 08

    Oct 23rd, 2011 (10/23/2011 2:07am) in reply to 2JL

    If you call and win, you win a pot of 177,252 (blinds + antes + 141,752 from villain + your 25k).
    I costs you 116,752 to call, so you're getting 1.518-to-1 odds.

    This means you have to win the showdown 40%+ of the time to show a profit. (Perhaps you need to win a little more often than that, because of ICM).

    He's certainly shoving AK and QQ+, so if he has the tightest imaginable jamming range you will make a slight loss on the call.

    That means you have to be very confident he's rarely jamming TT (or AQo), for folding to be correct.

    So... is he jamming TT?

    There are a number of factors that might actually tip you towards a fold... but it's close.
    1. If you look like a very tight player to him.
    2. If you have never 3-bet before at the final table.
    3. The fact you have the 2nd biggest stack, yet you brazenly 3-bet the chip leader.
    4. (Crucially:) If he's a thinking player, with a fold button.

    The fact he jammed his KK might suggest he expected you to call frequently - i.e. he believed you had a strong hand. This reinforces the possibility your 3-bet did indeed look extremely strong to him.

    So in a nutshell: I know many players would see this as a snap-call (6-handed, premium hand, "play to win", blah blah), but situationally IMO it's marginal IF you have a squeaky tight image.

    However I'm not sure if 3-betting JJ is the optimal play if you believe your table image is so tight that he will never 4-bet or call with TT. I can't make up my mind on this one...

    There are theoretical considerations of exploitability (you can't go around raise-folding JJ willy nilly) but that doesn't make it necessarily incorrect.

    If you are raise-folding, actually it's better to make a slightly smaller 3-bet. 23k would do the job. If he's semi-competent, he's rarely flatting you.

    One final thought. Otherwise decent multi-tablers CAN sometimes go into auto-pilot in these situations. So it's not impossible he's snap-jamming TT+ AQs+ without sufficient consideration for your table image. But if he has a HUD, it will tell him if you have a 3-bet rate of 0%!
    703 
  3. SchmidtSting SchmidtSting is offline

    Airdrie
    United Kingdom

    Posts: 18
    Joined: Feb 11

    Oct 24th, 2011 (10/24/2011 1:33am) in reply to Liquid_Eyes

    Nice response!
  4. 2JL 2JL is offline

    United Kingdom

    Posts: 90
    Joined: Sep 11

    Oct 24th, 2011 (10/24/2011 2:52pm) in reply to SchmidtSting

    I was hoping for a few more like that tbh...
    All these poker gods floating around. :)
    Thread Starter
  5. kelmann333 kelmann333 is offline

    Posts: 331
    Joined: Mar 10

    Oct 24th, 2011 (10/24/2011 5:01pm) in reply to 2JL

    I agree with the long and informative response. 4-betting jam against your JJ is a clear sign. You spent all this time to get to the FT and you are up against AK OR AQs at best, which means you are flipping a coin. But if he has an over pair, as in this case, you are crushed. For me, I'm not calling a shove with those chips in this spot.
  6. feedthemfish feedthemfish is offline

    United States

    Posts: 1,778
    Joined: Apr 08

    Oct 25th, 2011 (10/25/2011 7:23am) in reply to kelmann333

    i just think in this day an age of poker so may aggro out there that calling/shoving here was not a bad move. but i'd say reshove to all the smaller/similar stacks. fold to that one unless he has been bat shit insane recently.
  7. Darkowa Darkowa is offline

    Leuven
    Belgium

    Posts: 299
    Joined: Aug 10

    Oct 25th, 2011 (10/25/2011 6:28pm) in reply to feedthemfish

    3Bet calling allways, no question. He's def shoving lighter then jacks.
  8. Mennas Joint Mennas Joint is offline

    Victoria
    Canada

    Posts: 1,434
    Joined: Apr 05

    Nov 4th, 2011 (11/4/2011 9:14pm) in reply to Darkowa

    Not positive, but think he moved from US to play online, also might be helpful to know who ur up against... anyone know who this is?
     1
Reply to Thread