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Another tricky JJ hand, god i hate jacks

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  1. Faaantastic Faaantastic is offline

    Highland, NY
    United States

    Posts: 2,746
    Joined: Oct 05

    May 23rd, 2006 (5/23/2006 4:51pm)

    God I hate Jacks

    This was a very tough spot for me. With my raise, I'm trying to reel in the 2 shortstacks, hoping one might even push A-x or a mid-pair after limping in. What I did NOT want to happen was the CL to get involved, as we were the only ones with good stacks.

    Now I thought about re-raising pre, but ruled it out as I do not want to get too much in with JJ against the one guy who can break me, so I just call his baby raise.

    This flop looks like such a trap and that I will go down in flames to QQ-AA. This was the weird part, though, with his rather large bet of 700. It seemed in the beginning of the sng that he softplayed big hands post-flop, so I really was not sure if he was holding QQ-AA or AK. This was the fatal flaw in the hand.
    I can't see many options here, though. Most of the time I am up against another pair here, and if I re-raise to like 2200, I am committing myself and most likely screwed. The call was definitely weak though,and I am now F'ed if an A or K hits, as then there is no hand I could possibly beat. I can't fire on the turn either, because of the strength he showed on the flop.

    I planned on betting the river after his quick check on the turn, as I thought AK or even 10-10 was a real possibility, but the river was an absolute disaster, and now there is no way I'm good, as QQ-AA, AK, even AQ beats me.

    pokerstars Game #5029174197: Tournament #25244240, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2006/05/23 - 15:46:36 (ET)
    Table '25244240 1' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
    Seat 2: Tomdabomb711 (1180 in chips)
    Seat 4: Bigfrank233 (1315 in chips)
    Seat 5: ehrsamgj (1765 in chips)
    Seat 6: faaantastic (3815 in chips)
    Seat 8: bwh123 (4090 in chips)
    Seat 9: tractor boys (1335 in chips)
    faaantastic: posts small blind 25
    bwh123: posts big blind 50
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to faaantastic [Jd Jh]
    tractor boys: calls 50
    Tomdabomb711: folds
    Bigfrank233: calls 50
    ehrsamgj: folds
    faaantastic: raises 200 to 250
    bwh123: raises 350 to 600
    tractor boys: folds
    Bigfrank233: folds
    faaantastic: calls 350
    *** FLOP *** [3h 7c 4c]
    faaantastic: checks
    bwh123: bets 700
    faaantastic: calls 700
    *** TURN *** [3h 7c 4c] [5s]
    faaantastic: checks
    bwh123: checks
    *** RIVER *** [3h 7c 4c 5s] [2s]
    faaantastic: checks
    bwh123: checks (Don't understand his check, no way i have a 6)
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    faaantastic: shows [Jd Jh] (a pair of Jacks)
    bwh123: shows [Kd Ad] (a straight, Ace to Five)
    bwh123 collected 2700 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 2700 | Rake 0
    Board [3h 7c 4c 5s 2s]
    Seat 2: Tomdabomb711 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 4: Bigfrank233 folded before Flop
    Seat 5: ehrsamgj (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 6: faaantastic (small blind) showed [Jd Jh] and lost with a pair of Jacks
    Seat 8: bwh123 (big blind) showed [Kd Ad] and won (2700) with a straight, Ace to Five
    Seat 9: tractor boys folded before Flop
  2. DDSpade DDSpade is offline

    Henderson, NV
    United States

    Posts: 551
    Joined: Apr 06

    May 23rd, 2006 (5/23/2006 5:22pm) in reply to Faaantastic

    He checked because the only time he "should" get a river bet called is when the opponent has the higher straight. Anything else should be an obvious fold. it was good that you raised big with Jacks this time.

    You sorta got unlucky with the river. However he took control of the hand and extracted a free card in the process.

    Personally, I would have either led out on the flop or check-raised.

    1) Lead out on flop.
    Half the pot or 2/3 the pot.. If he also had an overpair, with position it seems, he's reraising you again. Two over cards like AK KQ whatever and he's either calling or folding right away.
    If he had a smaller pair like 10's, he'll call you down and you'll win a big pot.
    If he has a set, you'll lose.. but you can't play scared and think the worst always comes.

    by not leading out, you never know where you stand in the hand, you gave a free card and it ultimately cost you a bigger amount of your stack than betting on the flop and folding to a big raise.

    2) Check-raised.
    If you check, it's an almost automatic bet for him.. He took control preflop and will make a continuation bet/bluff on the flop to win it right there. Your call scared him, so of course he checked on the turn, took the free card and got lucky.

    I like the check raise because more than likely you were good and you would have extracted a bit more money from his contunation bet following a fold (most likely)

    ** You can't be scared to get knocked out since you're going for first. I would have put him on a smaller pair or two over cards but not really a bigger pair than yours. No matter how much he might softplay hands, i'm sure if he saw limpers , and a raiser, he'd want to isolate with a big big hand like AA and at the same time extract maximum value from his pkt pairs. Because he didn't just screamed to me that you were good.
  3. Faaantastic Faaantastic is offline

    Highland, NY
    United States

    Posts: 2,746
    Joined: Oct 05

    May 23rd, 2006 (5/23/2006 5:30pm) in reply to DDSpade

    Yea, I think check-raise would be the the only way to go. If I lead out on that flop, I think he would re-raise me no matter what, even if he has only AK, because of the strength he showed pre. And if he does re-pop me on the flop, I have to shut it down.

    Check-raising here is really dangerous though, too.
    And yes, I know I am going for the win. Of my results, almost 20% are wins, with a healthy number of 4ths and 5ths in trying to further exloit the bubble. I don't think this is the optimum spot to get all in, though, against the one guy can break me. The 2 of us were running over the table and the other guys were all under 1800, where I had 3800 and the other guy had 4k. If this situation came up with the guy with 1800, you bet ur ass im all in, trying to knock him out. I think it's different here, though.

    Btw, I did win the sng. :)
    Thread Starter
  4. Faaantastic Faaantastic is offline

    Highland, NY
    United States

    Posts: 2,746
    Joined: Oct 05

    May 23rd, 2006 (5/23/2006 5:35pm) in reply to Faaantastic

    and oh yea, I said he softplayed his big hands POST-flop. And yes, his large cont bet on the flop really made me think I might be good. I think with AA-KK he would have bet more in the 450-500 range, trying to get something out of me on a rag board.
    Thread Starter
  5. DDSpade DDSpade is offline

    Henderson, NV
    United States

    Posts: 551
    Joined: Apr 06

    May 23rd, 2006 (5/23/2006 5:42pm) in reply to Faaantastic

    Put yourself in your opponents shoes everytime you're in a hand with them. Some things just make more sense than others. If you had the AK. the pot is 1400 there'a alot of low cards, your opponent raised preflop with JJ and called your reraise.... and then after you took control of the pot, he leads out and bets half or 2/3 the pot on the flop of low cards.. what does that tell you? He has something and/or is protecting something. Even if it was just a draw, it's better than your AK probably. And so right there you decide to either see one more card or fold.. There's no way i should be thinking reraise this guy again.
  6. djmantra djmantra is offline

    Oslo
    Norway

    Posts: 87
    Joined: Jan 06

    May 24th, 2006 (5/24/2006 9:47am) in reply to Faaantastic

    1. Think of the possible hands he can reraise with. (Probably something like AA, KK, QQ, TT, AK, AQ).
    2. If you lead out after the flop with 2/3 the pot you tell him you have a pocket. It's harder for him to call or reraise you with nothing, than to lead out after you've checked. If I was him it looked like you were playing AQs or AK after your check on the flop. (Or I would consider the chance that you have a huge hand like AA.) He bets to find out something about your hand. When you just plain call, he probably puts you on AQ or AK. (Assuming you have a relatively tight image). You have to use your chips to get information. With plain calling you get no extra information whatsoever.

    The reason he checks the river is that he has nothing to gain from betting it. He thinks you have an A (AQ,AK), but you could also have something like 66. If he bets there's two possible outcomes:
    You reraise --> he has to figure out whether you had 66 and he is losing the hand, if you have AQ, AK (and he is splitting the pot), or if you have nothing at all. Assuming you have a tight image, he will at best split the pot.
    You fold--> He does not make any extra profit.
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